YALS-e17 0.5.0

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brummer

Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby brummer » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:59 am

i2productions wrote:Falk already makes all the source available, that aspect(as to my understanding) of GPL is covered

No, as soon you change the sources, you need to provide them as well. Without change them, you can't come to a different result then the original KXStudio ISO.
i2productions wrote:Why do you feel the constant need to harass me about this project?

Because you still fail to respect the essential part of Open Source Development. First you abuse DropBox as file sharing service, now that they have kick you, you gone abuse SourceForge. Note that I'm a member of the SourceForge Community and I really miss-like to see resources of the Community abused. It will take you less then 10 minutes to upload your source, and, that have to be the first step before you provide binary's.
Do you know why Open Source Developers provide there sources and give them to anyone who like to get them?
It is simply to provide a free knowledge base were anyone could benefit from and were developer could work on together. It is a lot of work to keep all this sources free, because company's always try to set patents and licenses over it.
You, still give a shit on that, it seems to me that you are only interested in the FREE BIER aspect of GPL'd software.
i2productions wrote: GIVE ME TIME! This project is only a week old.

As I already stated out, it will take you less then 10 minutes to upload your source to sourceforge. So what do you think how-many time you need to full fill the needs of the "terms of use" on sourceforge?
I also ask myself, given that I have download YASLS-0.7.3 LXDE 0.4.0 and ask you now friendly, could you please provide me the sources for that version, there is a small issue which I like to clean up, but I need the source to do so.

i2productions wrote:Calm down, and let's all work on this together?!

How could we work together, if you still hide your sources?
And wasn't it you who didn't take the given hand from falk, so you reject any try in working together.

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby tux99 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

brummer wrote:
i2productions wrote:Falk already makes all the source available, that aspect(as to my understanding) of GPL is covered

No, as soon you change the sources, you need to provide them as well.


That is false, the GPL only requires that sources are provided upon request to users of the binaries (they don't have to be available for public download).

Brummer, why do you continue to harass i2productions?
Do you really have nothing better to do with your time?

brummer

Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby brummer » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:26 am

tux99 wrote:
brummer wrote:
i2productions wrote:Falk already makes all the source available, that aspect(as to my understanding) of GPL is covered

No, as soon you change the sources, you need to provide them as well.


That is false, the GPL only requires that sources are provided upon request to users of the binaries (they don't have to be available for download).

Brummer, why do you continue to harass i2productions?
Do you really have nothing better to do with your time?

:lol: :lol:
What is with your time?
However, I have just send the request for the source (as a binary user) in the very same post you refer to. :wink:
As well I have explain in this post, why I continue with the harass, is there a point you didn't understand?
As well, the discussion right now goes about the use of sourceforge, and there it is requested to provide the source.
tux99, didn't you have something useful to contribute to this discussion? :lol:

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby tux99 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:35 am

brummer wrote:tux99, didn't you have something useful to contribute to this discussion? :lol:

I don't see you discussing anything, I see you breathing down i2productions neck for no good reason other to annoy him.
If I was i2productions I would completely ignore your posts, but I guess he is more patient than I am.

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby i2productions » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:28 pm

tux99 wrote:
brummer wrote:tux99, didn't you have something useful to contribute to this discussion? :lol:

I don't see you discussing anything, I see you breathing down i2productions neck for no good reason other to annoy him.
If I was i2productions I would completely ignore your posts, but I guess he is more patient than I am.


That's pretty much that at this time. For a guy that makes some great software, he sure is stuck in a backwards hardline ideology.

@Brummer
You didn't download anything, you are simply asking me for something you know I currently don't have. And what's all this crap about refusing FalkTX help? I have complied with all of his requests, and WHEN THE DEVELOPMENT GETS STABLE I will compile meta-packages. If you want to be an asshole, report me to SourceForge, if not why not doing something useful like finishing your lv2 ports. You're crossing the line from annoying to douche bag! There's also no source code being hidden. I have not made 1 single change to any bit of source code in the while distro. It's all the EXACT same packages, with cosmetic changes. So if by wanting sources you want to know how I set a background and moved a couple of programs to the hot bar I'd be more than happy to walk you through the process!

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:38 pm

I'll say it again: Brummer's arguable lack of tact does not justify ignoring him or his points.


Tux99, you are just making things worse by being the annoying yippy-yap dog reactively defending i2productions because of the offense you take at Brummer's tone. Just drop it and let them work out their own differences. Brummer is not a bully. He has real points and concerns. You're seeming as though you've been bullied before and this is a chance for you to stand up for the other victim and stop the bully, but this is misguided and isn't appropriate here. You said it yourself:
If I was i2productions I would completely ignore your posts, but I guess he is more patient than I am.

So please ignore Brummer. And since i2productions has more patience than you, it seem he is able to handle things himself.

i2productions: you still seem well-intentioned to me, but you are letting Tux99's righteous indignation be contagious. Take a deep breath and see if you can try to make gestures to better get along with Brummer and change the direction of the conversation instead of focusing on his tone. Brummer deserves some deference just for being a senior member of the community whose work you admire. You can do both at the same time: work to actively address his concerns and complain about his rudeness if you really find it that annoying.

:roll:
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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby i2productions » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:46 pm

wolftune wrote:i2productions: you still seem well-intentioned to me, but you are letting Tux99's righteous indignation be contagious.


No I was think roughly the same before I even read tux post. This is getting rediculous. He's just trying to derail me, for seemly no reason. I'm planning on complying with everyone's requests, I've been in contact with falkTX about things, and have a roadmap built for a 1.0 release with everything everyone needs. I really don't understand what the issue is anymore, other than brummer having seeminly nothing better to do. Most of his concerns have been addressed, though he is correct at this time, I do not have any source to share(cause there really isn't any.)

wolftune wrote:try to make gestures to better get along with Brummer and change the direction of the conversation instead of focusing on his tone.


Pretty sure that's what I've been doing this entire conversation up til this point.

brummer

Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby brummer » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:49 pm

i2productions wrote:@Brummer
You didn't download anything, you are simply asking me for something you know I currently don't have.

Exact, this is the first time you understand me. :wink:
I wouldn't report you there or elsewhere, that was never my intention,
but I hope you will take a bit more care when going along this way, otherwise, you will remember me as one of the friendliest you faced on this way. :lol:

bye, bye
hermann

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:02 pm

i2productions wrote:
wolftune wrote:i2productions: you still seem well-intentioned to me, but you are letting Tux99's righteous indignation be contagious.


No I was think roughly the same before I even read tux post. This is getting rediculous. He's just trying to derail me, for seemly no reason. I'm planning on complying with everyone's requests, I've been in contact with falkTX about things, and have a roadmap built for a 1.0 release with everything everyone needs. I really don't understand what the issue is anymore, other than brummer having seeminly nothing better to do. Most of his concerns have been addressed, though he is correct at this time, I do not have any source to share(cause there really isn't any.)

wolftune wrote:try to make gestures to better get along with Brummer and change the direction of the conversation instead of focusing on his tone.


Pretty sure that's what I've been doing this entire conversation up til this point.


No, when you call Brummer an asshole, a douche bag, and say nothing to express that you truly care about the issues that he's bringing up… no, that's not making gestures to get along.

here's a thought: engage in some perspective taking. Brummer spends a lot of extra time and energy to go out of his way to make absolutely certain he is complying with the ideals of Free Software. This means being aware of terms of service from Sourceforge and others, it means being careful about the way the process is handled, it means sometimes doing extra things he may not feel like doing but which are necessary to keep everything to the highest standards and the community-accepted ways of doing things. So, if you recognize that, isn't it understandable (though maybe not justifiable) that he would be annoyed to see someone else come around and fail to do all this and seem to have no respect for all the extra work this takes and the fact that the community wouldn't really exist if everyone bypassed this and only did the half-assed minimum? So he doesn't trust that you understand what's involved in this or appreciate how important honoring these things has been to the creation of the tools you are using. If you can see these things from his point of view, you should realize the need to show him and the rest of us (myself included!) that you respect these things.

Put quite simply, I'm giving you the benefit-of-the-doubt and Brummer is not. But in all cases, you haven't shown with certainty that you care about respect the issues of how to best maintain the community process of how Free/Libre/Open development works. I hope you'll get there, Brummer doubts it. Prove it to all of us and you'll end up with a good result and everyone getting along better.

To be clear: Brummer, I think, sees your apparent disregard for Dropbox policies, Sourceforge policies, etc., i.e. you acting first and asking questions later, as indication that you will do the same act-first questions-later with his software and everything else. Try to see why that upsets him.

Respectfully,
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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby i2productions » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:03 pm

@brummer
But you're missing the larger point. THERE'S NO CHANGES TO SOURCE CODE TO BE SUBMITTED! I don't know why you feel so threatened by a very small project of TESTING ISO's. I know there are some other components of this project that are not finished yet. Right now, the only reason it's out in the wild is so people can give me feature requests and changes, and then we'll actually have something to compile to the very few things that would need to be a a desktop-meta packages for each of the alternate desktop. I get it, you want me to do everything on the up and up, and I'm getting there. Every project starts somewhere. I figured I'd abandon this by this point due to no interest. Now that I know there is some, I am working to get everything in order. Give me another few weeks before you pass judgment. I have not been blind to any of the things you have pointed out. Merely haven't gotten there yet.

@wolftune
i2productions wrote:Pretty sure that's what I've been doing this entire conversation up til this point.

Notice I said UP TIL THIS POINT. I was nothing but nice with brummer. And if you read my posts you'd see I'm addressing his concerns, falkTX concerns, YOUR concerns. I'm sure there was a time early in the development of guitarix when it didn't have licence and all the rest. All i ever wanted to do was make things easy for new users(I really did have your students in mind, but you don't care so maybe I shouldn't), and provide choices, better documentation. Constant badgering is only going to make me want to no longer contribute ANYTHING to the community, because on the surface I've got nothing but critics, and on the other side I've apparently got a lot of people downloading these iso's and not saying a word about it.

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:11 pm

i2productions wrote:I don't know why you feel so threatened by a very small project of TESTING ISO's.


read my just-a-moment-ago post. If you don't know why Brummer is reacting as he is, it is because you haven't walked a mile, or even a block, in his shoes. It shows that you haven't done the necessary steps to try to see his point of view. At the very least this could start with a more honest wording of your statement into a question: "Why do you feel so threatened by a very small project of testing ISO's?" But then you have to be sincerely open-minded to the answer and try to really understand his perspective. You may still think his reactions are wrong, but you have to understand his perspective before you can judge.

I'm sure there was a time early in the development of guitarix when it didn't have licence and all the rest

How are you sure about this? That sounds not like perspective-taking and more like projection.

And again, I am trying to see things from your perspective, and that's what leads me to think you have truly good intentions. I should equally say that Brummer is failing to try to see things from your perspective, and it would help if he worked on that too.
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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby i2productions » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:19 pm

i2productions wrote:I'm sure there was a time early in the development of guitarix when it didn't have licence and all the rest

wolftune wrote:How are you sure about this? That sounds not like perspective-taking and more like projection.

You keep telling me to find middle ground. That was a polite across the aisle gesture, a "remember when your project was this young" kind of thing.

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:23 pm

i2productions wrote:Constant badgering is only going to make me want to no longer contribute ANYTHING to the community, because on the surface I've got nothing but critics, and on the other side I've apparently got a lot of people downloading these iso's and not saying a word about it.


I'm sorry, please don't think I'm trying to discourage you from participating and contributing. I just want you to do it in the way that is best and doesn't divide the community but works to respect the existing modes of collaboration and addresses concerns. I know I'm not perfect in how I express things, and I apologize for being anything less than respectful. And the crazy part is that I'm saying anything apologetic because I think I've been less rude than most folks on either side of things. Sincere apologies can help a lot when there is misunderstanding. Anyone who finds themselves digging in instead of reaching out and apologizing is not helping. All that said, I'm not apologizing for the ideas I'm saying, only for the fact that I could have worked even harder to express things better. Please give me the benefit-of-the-doubt, and please drop your defensiveness, it isn't helping.

You keep telling me to find middle ground. That was a polite across the aisle gesture, a "remember when your project was this young" kind of thing.

Ok, sorry, sincere apologies. But it was worded not as a question but as a telling. You were TELLING Brummer that he wasn't perfect when he started out, and your details may or may not be right and you should try to ask first and understand his experience rather than making assumptions about it.
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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby i2productions » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Not looking for an apology, but thank you. Seriously though, have I not agreed to meetings everyones concerns? Notice falk hasn't weighed in, in a while? Cause he's waiting for me to get things together, and to a point where it makes sense to send my contributions back up stream. I can't do that until I get a whole lot more user feedback. My development is at a standstill. There are a couple of small issues I know need to be worked out in all these iso's before I'm even comfortable working on a meta-package for each desktop. Testing would greatly help and speed up the process, hence why I released this into the wild before being ready. It's been a week and a half. It will likely be the end of February(or later with the RPM challenge next month) before you see any of my contributions sent back upstream. But some of them will become apparent to ALL KXStudio users soon. I finished the layouts and cues for another HOW-TO tutorial video. I've got 3 cue notes finished, with about a dozen on the drawing board(with a brief guitarix tutorial interesting enough :lol: .) There are many planned facets to this projects, and I'm working on them all a little bit at a time. The best way ANYONE can help right now is to test and report.

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Re: YALS-0.7.3, LXDE 0.4.0, e17 0.5.0

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:43 pm

ok, great! And I will probably get around to testing more sometime soon, I'm just very busy.

And I can be a little more clear about my personal perspective too: I'm annoyed at any sorts of reactions that seem to hurt the Free/Libre/Open process and focus of the community. So when I see someone like Brummer emphasize things toward further respect for the highest standards of Free/Libre/Open ideals, toward going above and beyond to making sure to respect these things, then I agree with that regardless of how it is worded. And I don't like seeing anyone disrespect those ideals even if they are just reacting defensively because Brummer's wording wasn't tactful. So I don't like seeing tux99 mention picky details as a way to disregard the ideals that Brummer is pushing for, and I don't like seeing you align with tux99, because all of this sounds like disregard for these ideals. To me, the GPL isn't just an annoying legal document you grudgingly follow but is a high ideal which we should go above and beyond the legal requirements to fulfill the intention of defending freedom. And this extends then to respecting the way the community works, and so I react a bit when anyone pushes against that.
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