JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

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tramp
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by tramp »

Kott wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:26 am
j_e_f_f_g wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:36 am I mean, can a host that uses Wayland somehow be able to also invoke XWayland for old LV2 plugins? That's the rub.
No. And that's why PipeWire was invented for :)
Again, why not? It is always possible to use a UI-bridge.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by bluebell »

tramp wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:04 am
Kott wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:26 am
j_e_f_f_g wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:36 am I mean, can a host that uses Wayland somehow be able to also invoke XWayland for old LV2 plugins? That's the rub.
No. And that's why PipeWire was invented for :)
Again, why not? It is always possible to use a UI-bridge.
And I think that starting a new process for the GUI isn't a bad idea, so you can separate the DSP stuff from the GUI stuff.

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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by Drumfix »

JACK was the best, while not perfect, thing that was developed in the Linux audio world. The reason that it is not the standard today is very simple:
The author did not work for any of the commercial linux vendors (SUSe/Redhat), so they cannot control its development.
Alsa, this utter piece of rubbish => developed and controlled by SUSe
pulseaudio, need i say more => RedHat
pipewire, same story => RedHat
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by Kott »

Drumfix wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:45 am Alsa, this utter piece of rubbish => developed and controlled by SUSe
Really? https://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Alsa_Team

The only true is that Takashi Iwai is working in SUSE afaik. But where would be the Jack without Alsa? As a coder you should know it better than me)
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by Kott »

tramp wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:04 am
Kott wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:26 am
j_e_f_f_g wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:36 am I mean, can a host that uses Wayland somehow be able to also invoke XWayland for old LV2 plugins? That's the rub.
No. And that's why PipeWire was invented for :)
Again, why not? It is always possible to use a UI-bridge.
I didn't say "not", I'm still skeptic about universal things. If it will works no worse than current plugins - I'll be totally happy.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by tramp »

Okay. :)

Still I've no idea what PipeWire have to do with Wayland.
But for PipeWire we could assume that it is a step in the right direction. The developer take a lot of care for the needs of pro Audio users and is in continuos contact to the LAD people. He have already implemented a lot of requests from LAD to full-fill the outpointed needs.
So, PipeWire will allow users to run jack applications without the need to setup jackd which may take a lot of hassle away from beginners. It allow as well interconnections between jack and non-jack applications. No more bridges needed.
Beside that there is a routine implemented which allow a PRO to run the original jack at any time, as well without hassle.
To Wayland I can't say anything beside that I haven't used it, and properly wouldn't use it as long I don't must, which seems to be a very long time ahead. :D
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by Kott »

Wayland uses PipeWire for screen grabbing.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by raboof »

Drumfix wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:45 am JACK was the best, while not perfect, thing that was developed in the Linux audio world. The reason that it is not the standard today is very simple: The author did not work for any of the commercial linux vendors (SUSe/Redhat), so they cannot control its development.
I don't think this is true. JACK chose a very specific niche: 'pro audio' routing, and makes a number of design choices that make it attractive for this use case, but unattractive as a "general-purpose" audio server.

For example, for the 'pro audio' use case, you want to limit the amount of resampling, because resampling comes with quality loss. For this reason, you pick one sample rate for your whole session, and if you need to resample this is a somewhat (intentionally) difficult/explicit/conscious thing that needs to happen 'at the edges'. If there is any component in your graph that cannot 'keep up', this is a problem that needs fixing, otherwise you might get unpredictable (e.g. phasing/timing) problems etc, hence JACK forces everything to be sample-accurate and throws a loud fit (xruns) when it cannot deliver on those requirements.

For 'desktop audio', however, the world is completely different: you don't care about sample rates, slightly degraded audio quality or miniscule delays, you just want a 'best-effort' attempt at playing what you'd like to hear. You want your bluetooth headphones to work seamlessly, and the audio re-routed to go to those instead of your laptop speakers as soon as you turn them on.

JACK didn't become the standard for 'desktop audio' because it's not very suitable for 'desktop audio' - which is not a problem with JACK, but a result of design choices that *are* useful for the purpose for which it was written.

I haven't looked into PipeWire yet, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. I'm not saying it's fundamentally impossible to cover both the 'pro audio' use case and the 'desktop audio' use case in a single piece of software. It will be hard though, since it'll need to provide *both* the convenience of 'desktop audio' *and* allow the strictness you want in (some parts of) pro audio. JACK wasn't that (nor was it designed to be that), perhaps PipeWire will be.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

bebob99 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:16 pm I triggered some discussion
Yes, you did. And as a new arrival, that is considered a serious breach of protocol. You're supposed to initially only observe the conversation until such time as nils forks your project.

Unfortunately you'll need to be punished for your transgression, and this is really gonna hurt. Raboof, set up the karaoke machine and pass the microphone to tramp. (It's not that tramp is that awful a singer. But he insists upon reenacting the song's original music video, and tonight he's singing Miley Cyrus's "Wrecking Ball").

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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by tramp »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:35 pm Raboof, set up the karaoke machine and pass the microphone to tramp.
As far he noted me, I should bring my Banjo with me.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by ComposerGuy »

Hi.
I'm new with Linux (Ubuntu Studio 20.10, low latency kernel), coming from Windows.
Excuse my lenghty comment: I didn't read every comment in the post, it may have been answered.
Since post is recent and concerns Jack in the appropriate section, I'll ask a question:

What's the deal between my USB 2.0 device, Alsa, Jack and Pulse?
(2nd question: how does Carla fit in the picture? Needed for vst support?)
(3rd question: where do I find good vst that work with my distro? (especially keys and orchestral, but pop/jazz would be needed as well))

Whith my fresh distro install I had no sound.
Selected my USB 2.0 device (Audiobox 22 VSL) then sound happened, but not in all apps:
Yoshimi worked, but not ZynAddSubFX, FluidSynth & Qsynth, MuseScore and Hydrogen.
Ardour worked with Alsa at 44.1kHz (didn't try 48kHz first) but more than 1 track with yoshimi as instrument made it crash (+other bugs. Maybe not the best daw to use? There is LMMS, don't know if it's good, haven't tried).

In Studio Controls/Audio Setup, the only way to get sound in all apps except Fluid and Zyn (still not working) was to change the 2nd parameter to VSL (others I left on default):
Jack Master (no usb): USB Jack Master/ USB device that should be master: VSL,0,0/ Jack sample rate: 44.1kHz / Periods: 2 / Backend: Alsa

AND then start Jack: BINGO, I had sound everywhere.

But...
Reopening Ardour, Jack was the only way to go: Alsa could not start if I selected it, would make app crash.
I changed Jack's rate to 48kHz, restarted Ardour and now it worked, + yoshimi could be used in multiple tracks.

I may not be using the best config settings. From what I understand in the few messages I read here, Jack wouldn't be needed, 'cause it's old and Alsa is better? In my present settings if "a2jmidi" is not activated, I can't get MIDI input from my keyboard.

I primarily use MIDI and vst (that seems to be a problem in linux: Steinberg told me they don't support Linux, what a pity (and lost $$$$)...
What about Garritan's sounds (Finale)? I just checked that Finale itself doesn't run on Linux except maybe in a Windows emulator, and a quick search on Garritan's blog yields no result. But maybe there is a way...?))

Since everytime I change a parameter in Ubuntu, the system bugs or crashes (login/out failures mostly), I'd like to be sure before I tweak anything.
Maybe I need Jack because my card is too old? Checked on the vendor's site and they don't say anything about Linux (+ the product is discontinued).

So... Would eliminating Jack lower MIDI/Audio latency and eliminate the "No audio output"/ "Jack (sink) activated" messages at startup, and "no output device" for Hardware Output Devices in Pulse Controls?
(+Yoshimi works only with my MIDI keyboard if set in-app with Alsa, not with Jack, so I don't know if my config's the best I can get).

The other "Jack Master Device (no USB)" options are either ALC887-VD (the soundchip on motherboard) or NVIDIA HDMI.
In the Extra Devices tab, my VSL device is in "Device Blacklist (devices to ignore)".
I didn't put it there, and it worked at first but not in all apps... But Jack was NOT running... I'm confused... :?

Thanks for any help any one can provide!
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by bluzee »

ComposerGuy wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:30 am Hi.
I'm new with Linux

Thanks for any help any one can provide!
I think it would be easier to help if you were to start a new thread or threads for yourself in the Newbies section. Put just one question in a thread.
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Re: JACK is Hannibal Lector with an ear fetish

Post by ComposerGuy »

OK, I'll do that. Thanks
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