Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

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Capoeira
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by Capoeira »

I am using the pulseaudio replacement atm (enable pipewire-pulse.socket).
this is intresting even when not replacing jack since it will make pulse and alsa available in jack without all the shitty workrounds we are using atm. the last part is not working atm though. jack is not startable when the pipewire-pulse.socket is in use; it should/will release the soundcard and a show pipewire client in jack

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ds-tech_media
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by ds-tech_media »

Capoeira wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:03 pm
I see a couple of advantages for my use-case:

1) bitperfect output: with Jack you are forced to one fixed samplerate

2) I run a couple of plugins (convolvers/loudness-compensation) in my playback chain which require a larger buffer. With PiWi I wont have to switch back and fourth sound-server buffers anymore

2b) because of playback chain mentioned in 2) I have to manualy delay video for movies and youtube and stuff. PiWi will do this for me

3) alsa-jack plugin sucks (loopback solution even more). with PiWi alsa only software will behave like a normal client. also I don't use Pulseaudio; with PiWi I will finaly be able to use aplications that work better with PA then Alsa (Spotify,Skype,....)

4) Sometimes I just don't want to switch on my whole soundsystem to just watching a simple youtube video, and instead throw the sound to my TV speakers. I have a jack profile for this, but sucks to have to switch it on; and when I have it autostarting it suck to switch profiles when I want to use my main system. With PiWi I will be able to route my audio on the fly
So you don't have Pulseaudio installed at all and that's why you have to route everything through JACK? I use both. I have JACK running for my interface/MIDI/USB-Mic and just use Pulseaudio for web browsers/music playback etc. But when I'm using LMMS, Ardour, Reaper, or OBS-Studio with Calfjackhost I do everything through JACK.
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Capoeira
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by Capoeira »

ds-tech_media wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:51 am
Capoeira wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:03 pm
I see a couple of advantages for my use-case:

1) bitperfect output: with Jack you are forced to one fixed samplerate

2) I run a couple of plugins (convolvers/loudness-compensation) in my playback chain which require a larger buffer. With PiWi I wont have to switch back and fourth sound-server buffers anymore

2b) because of playback chain mentioned in 2) I have to manualy delay video for movies and youtube and stuff. PiWi will do this for me

3) alsa-jack plugin sucks (loopback solution even more). with PiWi alsa only software will behave like a normal client. also I don't use Pulseaudio; with PiWi I will finaly be able to use aplications that work better with PA then Alsa (Spotify,Skype,....)

4) Sometimes I just don't want to switch on my whole soundsystem to just watching a simple youtube video, and instead throw the sound to my TV speakers. I have a jack profile for this, but sucks to have to switch it on; and when I have it autostarting it suck to switch profiles when I want to use my main system. With PiWi I will be able to route my audio on the fly
So you don't have Pulseaudio installed at all and that's why you have to route everything through JACK? I use both. I have JACK running for my interface/MIDI/USB-Mic and just use Pulseaudio for web browsers/music playback etc. But when I'm using LMMS, Ardour, Reaper, or OBS-Studio with Calfjackhost I do everything through JACK.
having Pulseaudio installed "traditionaly" causes the weirdests problems when running jack for many people. One comom problem I remember is not beeing able to bounce a project in Ardour/Mixbus. but problems appear all the time, like this time when I had Pulse accidently installed: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21784&p=121450#p121450

you are obviously good if it works flawlessly on your system

Philotomy
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by Philotomy »

Capoeira wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:36 am
having Pulseaudio installed "traditionaly" causes the weirdests problems when running jack for many people. One comom problem I remember is not beeing able to bounce a project in Ardour/Mixbus. but problems appear all the time, like this time when I had Pulse accidently installed: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21784&p=121450#p121450

you are obviously good if it works flawlessly on your system
Maybe just lucky; I haven't run into any problems like that. (That said, I've been using Bitwig as my DAW, so if the issue is triggered by some combination of Ardour/Mixbus + JACK + Pulse I wouldn't have come up against it.)
My recordings on SoundCloud
Distro: Arch, DAW: Bitwig, Interface: Scarlett 18i8 Gen 2

studio32
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by studio32 »

IIRC Pipewire (PW) delivers also sample accurate MIDI (like JACK-MIDI). Not sure if the applications needs PipeWire API support. Any experience with MIDI and PW?

Here is the PW LAC talk paper:
https://lac2020.sciencesconf.org/307881
https://lac2020.sciencesconf.org/307881/document

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ds-tech_media
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by ds-tech_media »

Philotomy wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:52 pm
Capoeira wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:36 am
having Pulseaudio installed "traditionaly" causes the weirdests problems when running jack for many people. One comom problem I remember is not beeing able to bounce a project in Ardour/Mixbus. but problems appear all the time, like this time when I had Pulse accidently installed: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21784&p=121450#p121450

you are obviously good if it works flawlessly on your system
Maybe just lucky; I haven't run into any problems like that. (That said, I've been using Bitwig as my DAW, so if the issue is triggered by some combination of Ardour/Mixbus + JACK + Pulse I wouldn't have come up against it.)
I haven't tried Bitwig yet, but from what I've seen reviewed it looks like the best DAW on Linux. That fine tuning of notes you can do is awesome.
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by ds-tech_media »

ds-tech_media wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:51 am
Capoeira wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:03 pm
I see a couple of advantages for my use-case:

1) bitperfect output: with Jack you are forced to one fixed samplerate

2) I run a couple of plugins (convolvers/loudness-compensation) in my playback chain which require a larger buffer. With PiWi I wont have to switch back and fourth sound-server buffers anymore

2b) because of playback chain mentioned in 2) I have to manualy delay video for movies and youtube and stuff. PiWi will do this for me

3) alsa-jack plugin sucks (loopback solution even more). with PiWi alsa only software will behave like a normal client. also I don't use Pulseaudio; with PiWi I will finaly be able to use aplications that work better with PA then Alsa (Spotify,Skype,....)

4) Sometimes I just don't want to switch on my whole soundsystem to just watching a simple youtube video, and instead throw the sound to my TV speakers. I have a jack profile for this, but sucks to have to switch it on; and when I have it autostarting it suck to switch profiles when I want to use my main system. With PiWi I will be able to route my audio on the fly
So you don't have Pulseaudio installed at all and that's why you have to route everything through JACK? I use both. I have JACK running for my interface/MIDI/USB-Mic and just use Pulseaudio for web browsers/music playback etc. But when I'm using LMMS, Ardour, Reaper, or OBS-Studio with Calfjackhost I do everything through JACK.
I forgot to highlight, Pulseaudio's output is running through a traditional set of speakers. So JACK gets it's own dedicated interface in my usual usage.
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studio32
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by studio32 »

ds-tech_media wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:14 am


I haven't tried Bitwig yet, but from what I've seen reviewed it looks like the best DAW on Linux. That fine tuning of notes you can do is awesome.
It's not as well embedded in the linuxaudio environment compared to Ardour. It has ALSA MIDI, which you have to get working via a kernel module and virtual midi iirc. No JACK MIDI, questionable JACK support, no LV2 support. Looks like it's a nice DAW, but they could take their costumers on Linux a lot more serious imho.

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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by christobal »


I haven't tried Bitwig yet, but from what I've seen reviewed it looks like the best DAW on Linux. That fine tuning of notes you can do is awesome.

Bitwig is really nice, but the fact that it requires some tinkering to get midi outs from it when running aj2midi and jack is quite annoying. Oh, and no lv2 support.

If you can do everything within Bitwig and you don't need to run carla or use any lv2's or route MIDI to external apps - I have yet to find anything comparably good on Linux for working with midi and using my keystep pro.

The plugins and drum machines that come with Bitiwig are also great tbh.


It's also expensive... (relative of course) - thankfully A friend lets me borrow one of his licenses.
OS: Manjaro
Amp: Echolette M40 / NG51S Tape Echo
Midi: Arturia Keystep Pro
Strings: Martin D15M, Yamaha FG-180, Alhambra 5P, Yamaha Revstar

studio32
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by studio32 »

Great to see how the PipeWire developers are responding to feedback from the LAD/LAU community. This process looks to be far better compared to the implementation of PulseAudio. There was almost no collaboration there. O my, we needed this 15 years ago.

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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by Capoeira »

studio32 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:22 pm
Great to see how the PipeWire developers are responding to feedback from the LAD/LAU community. This process looks to be far better compared to the implementation of PulseAudio. There was almost no collaboration there. O my, we needed this 15 years ago.
a shame Ffado wont be suported, it seams https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire ... issues/326

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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by Philotomy »

christobal wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:55 pm
Bitwig is really nice, but...no lv2 support.
If I had to pick one thing I'd improve on Bitwig, this would be it: native LV2 support on Linux would be great. Right now it's limited to Linux VSTs. I load LV2s with Carla. I've loaded some Windows VSTs at one time or another, but I tend to avoid that, in general (not because of any specific issue, I just don't like doing it for some reason). I do like that you can run plugins such that if one crashes it doesn't crash the whole DAW; you can isolate them individually, or by source/developer, et cetera.

For my workflow, Bitwig works well. I like the user interface, and the devices and effects that come with it are quite good. Some of them are super powerful. They can also require some tweaking to get the best results (e.g., the built-in reverb is surprisingly good, but you need to know what you're doing, maybe adding modulation and EQ to the late reflections, et cetera. It's not as straightforward to use as many commercial reverb plugins.) As a DAW, it seems to have a lot of focus on sound design, but I honestly don't delve into that too much. Somewhat ironically (considering my DAW choice), I spend more time with recorded audio (guitar, vocals, harmonica, etc), but I often use MIDI and software instruments for drums and bass and such. I'm using an Akai MPK mini as my current controller, but also hook up my Yamaha digital piano.

As far as Pipewire, I have yet use it, but I think it shows enormous promise and I'm keeping a close eye on it.
My recordings on SoundCloud
Distro: Arch, DAW: Bitwig, Interface: Scarlett 18i8 Gen 2

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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by studio32 »

Midi is not the strongest part of Ardour (other then recording Midi maybe), but the way you can edit midi in the same window is nice for workflow I think. So it might have the potential to go the same route as their audio part, which beats other DAWs.
In Bitwig it is opening a other window I think for midi editing.
Bitwig could benefit from PipeWire, I've read they see potential in the 'flatpak' system for releasing their DAW/plugins. The idea of PipeWire has it's origin in the 'flatpak' system.

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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by ds-tech_media »

Just curious, what's Ardour missing when it comes to working with MIDI?

I spend most of my time in LMMS because I entered music work with FL-Studio back in the day, and LMMS is designed with FruityLoops as it's model.
I also am using an Akai MPK-Mini for MIDI instruments. LMMS benefits from having it's own VST host built in that can run Windows' .dll's and .exe's via VeSTige, but I also have Carla Rack/Patchbay plugins working with it for LVM. The main drawback to LMMS is no audio inputs, and I also play guitar and have a lot of effects etc. For that I usually go to Ocen Audio, but I've spent some time in Harrison Mixbus/Ardour/Reaper. Ardour/Mixbus are both a bit complicated in my opinion, but it's good to have more and not need it.
Reaper has a lot of fans online even some notable producers.

I actually have several versions of Bitwig on my studio machine, and I have all of the Bitwig sound kits too. I haven't actually installed it because I was worried about running out of trial, and I'm planning to demo it in part 3 of my Guide to Linux Audio Production. A Bitwig user actually told me that there's no limit to the evaluation though, and that I could technically just route it's playback out to another application with JACK. Depending on how I like it I'm definitely prepared to spend the $300, but I really am partial to LMMS.
Carla is invaluable for plug-ins, but you have to make sure you've gone into the preferences and enabled DSSI/Bridging/VST2/VSTi/VST3. Out of the box half of it's functionality is disabled even in KX/Ubuntu-Studio and AVLinux.

I'm going to dive into PipeWire sometime in the next couple of months. When I started my guide I hadn't even considered covering it, but now that sounds like a good finale of sorts.
I've honestly not felt held back by Linux sound so far, and ironically Pulseaudio was one of the things I liked most about Linux. I was scared to try JACK because of all the things I'd read online about it, but it's a lot simpler than most people think IMO.
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studio32
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Re: Pipewire called for testers. Anybody tried it out?

Post by studio32 »

The nice thing about JACK is that is specifically designed for Pro-Audio, whereas PipeWire is also for Desktop and at the end Desktop would be their most important target (lot's of people will use it on Desktop, report problems etc etc). Which could be a disadvantage for Pro-Audio. Maybe what we want is a renewed implementation of JACK. If PipeWire can fix things, why can't it be fixed in JACK is a fair question.

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