For those supporting OpenOctave...

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ccherrett
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

studio32 wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Btw I would vote for Non Session Management (NSM) support
Another session manager! I long for a doc similar to "jack1 vs jack2" in jackaudio.org or "pulseaudio vs jack" in Lennarts blog that clearly explains the differences between Ladish, Jack session and, now, Non Session. Is there something on this?

Ah, and you can always have the scripts! 8)
Short summary ;) :
JackSession to minimal, not an ideal user experience
Ladish the opposite of minimal (requires jackdbus),
NSM user friendly, all the functionality you need, but still light and minimal.
We are open to NSM. Just a few more things to get to first and we will take a look.
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

Pablo wrote:
Btw I would vote for Non Session Management (NSM) support
Another session manager! I long for a doc similar to "jack1 vs jack2" in jackaudio.org or "pulseaudio vs jack" in Lennarts blog that clearly explains the differences between Ladish, Jack session and, now, Non Session. Is there something on this?

Ah, and you can always have the scripts! 8)
Sorry :)

Did not mean to create another manager, we just desperately needed a better way to deal with connections. And while we where doing so we might as well go all the way.
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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GMaq
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by GMaq »

Hi,

Wow OOM has really come a long way since the 2011 versions! Are Lv2 GUI's working better now? In my experience adding LV2's with GUI's to tracks was causing segfaults on 2011.3. I haven't had time to build the latest GIT which seems to be very active now, perhaps I'll look again when some of this stuff being discussed gets committed. Anyway nice to see things progressing so nicely :)

Re: Session Management

I agree with pablo, this is precisely why I haven't specialized in session management in AV Linux although aj-snapshot and jack-session are there by default. it's funny I have not had one post on my forum about including ladish or switching to jack2 which tells me the folks that really want it are getting it elsewhere like KXStudio or that perhaps it is not that widely used in a majority of workflows by the average user.

BTW there is also aj-snapshot... this stuff really gets beyond ridiculous sometimes :roll:

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

GMaq wrote:Hi,

Wow OOM has really come a long way since the 2011 versions! Are Lv2 GUI's working better now? In my experience adding LV2's with GUI's to tracks was causing segfaults on 2011.3. I haven't had time to build the latest GIT which seems to be very active now, perhaps I'll look again when some of this stuff being discussed gets committed. Anyway nice to see things progressing so nicely :)

Re: Session Management

I agree with pablo, this is precisely why I haven't specialized in session management in AV Linux although aj-snapshot and jack-session are there by default. it's funny I have not had one post on my forum about including ladish or switching to jack2 which tells me the folks that really want it are getting it elsewhere like KXStudio or that perhaps it is not that widely used in a majority of workflows by the average user.

BTW there is also aj-snapshot... this stuff really gets beyond ridiculous sometimes :roll:
We have worked full time everyday since the 2011 release. Open Octave Studio has been through major rewrites in many places.

We will have jack session in right away. NSM needs OSC so it will take longer.

As for the plugin system, it has been rewritten by falktx. All GUIs for plugins should work fine. We now support lv2 and native vst synths as well. All plugin automation is working.

You can now add all audio plugins directly to midi tracks as well.:

Image

Image

One othe best best things in my opinion is that we have moved away from the large templates with hundreds of connections that you may or may not use and moved to Instrument Templates.

An Instrument Template holds all the mapping information for linuxsampler, so when you select to create a track that is say Cellos, Open Octave Studio will create all the routing and mappings for you. No need to have any linuxsampler configurations. We deal with all of that for you. So you only have the routes and mappings loaded into RAM that you need, making way for much smaller spec'd machines to run Open Octave Studio. My wife's setup sat at 65% CPU and 6GB or RAM used sitting still. Well over 1000 jack connections and only a few were actually used.

We have some work to do on our audio editing, but we have already done a lot since 2011 and just a few tweaks like, normalize, reverse, per part automation, a few different fade types and a few other goodies.

We are currently planning surround sound, I am very excited about that. I think that our plans will give us one of the most advanced surround mixers available. Then on to video tracks.

From that point I have the software I need to score a movie. Very cool :)
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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studio32
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by studio32 »

GMaq wrote:
Re: Session Management

I agree with pablo, this is precisely why I haven't specialized in session management in AV Linux although aj-snapshot and jack-session are there by default. it's funny I have not had one post on my forum about including ladish or switching to jack2 which tells me the folks that really want it are getting it elsewhere like KXStudio or that perhaps it is not that widely used in a majority of workflows by the average user.

BTW there is also aj-snapshot... this stuff really gets beyond ridiculous sometimes :roll:
The nice thing about non-session-manager (nsm) is that it gives you a lot of functionality without the need of jackdbus. I prefer a more clean method, without jackdbus and so I was using JackSession. The problem with JackSession atm is that is it only useful for apps with JS support and then still the workflow isn't always ideal. NSM gives you the possibility to launch apps without nsm support via the nsm-proxy client, which is a big plus and one of the reasons why I switched from JS to nsm. With the client jackpatch you're able to restore all the JACK connections. So nsm gives you at least the functionality of a script with aj-snapshot, but a lot more flexible. So I don't use scripts and no JS anymore. I think nsm gives me more already, even if there are just a few apps with nsm support (non-things and yoshimi). Also a nice plus of nsm is that you're able to archive sessions and share it and use it on a other system, this is why the nsm api has strict rules for implementation, which is a good thing.
http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php ... 766#p25766

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GMaq
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by GMaq »

studio32

Thanks for sharing that info, very helpful!

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studio32
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by studio32 »

I don't say that Ladish or JackSession are bad. I just think NSM is the best solution for the linuxaudio session problem so far. I can't find a disadvantage of nsm yet. JS is to minimal and has workflow issues, Ladish needs jackdbus (I use JACK1) and I think ladish does to much, supports to many api's, which makes it to complex and more vulnerable for issues. I prefer minimal and clean.
I've listed the strong points of NSM here: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7986

afaik, what you do with kxstudio; adding apps via menu to ladish, should also possible with nsm.

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GMaq
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by GMaq »

falkTX wrote:I'm not sure why people don't care more about ladish... Yes it uses DBus, but it's a default in JACK2 anyway, and lots of other apps use it too (KDE, Gnome and PulseAudio at least).
The fact that it can have 'studios' and projects is a major deal for me, and also the a2j integration. I believe the majority of users never really tried the full ladish features (I can say for personal experience, it's does *everything* I need on a SM).
@falktx

I have been an Ardour user for 5 or 6 years now, long before the concept of SM came into play Ardour would simply remember your connections as long as you launched the connected apps before Ardour. I personally at the most might have Hydrogen, Qsynth and Ardour up and running at the same time. For someone like me Session Management really just introduces another app to run to keep track of the other apps you are running...?

This would be one reasonable explanation as to why Ladish isn't as popular as you might suppose it could be.

I truly think for more complicated workflow that SM's are a great idea and I meant no disrespect to you or nedko or others who develop session managers. I simply get frustrated as a distributor that we have 4 implementations of doing roughly the same thing. I know that is one of the freedoms of Linux, sometimes that freedom is abused in my opinion as the freedom to make a mess... :roll:

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by wolftune »

GMaq, I agree with the issue of redundancy. We need to try to weed things out, pick the best solutions, and eliminate choice paralysis. Anyway, I think FLOSS actually is perhaps less guilty of redundancy than proprietary stuff. With FLOSS, we can build on each other's work. With proprietary, there's 600,000 iOS / Android apps (WTF‽). If it feels like FLOSS brings more redundancy, it's because we have access to it all, whereas with proprietary stuff users simply don't buy all the DAWs that exist… But the bigger point is that fighting against redundancy is worthwhile.

I really appreciate session handlers in general for setting up things like live effects. It's nice to have the various independent bits controllable all at once. I think of a session handler as a lot like just a system hibernate where different states can be saved and recalled. My ideal session handler actually would be essentially that (without the need to logout or restart, of course)
Aaron Wolf
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

For now Open Octave Studio will become a session manager and support Jack Session. We will write the manager to lauch when opening up an oomidi file. So no need for any external application to run a session. It will be 100% transparent to the user. All they need to do is open a file in Open Octave studio.
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

My first tests of Side chaining in Open Octave Studio was a success! I have a 1st Violin track being ducked by a bassoon signal.

So we now support many channels on a track as well as a brand new routing manager. (soon to be jack session manager)

http://www.openoctave.org/openoctave_si ... outing.png

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Christopher Cherrett
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studio32
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by studio32 »

Why didn't you choose for NSM? It has advantages compared to JS:

- in JS I can't close a session without saving (I've to close all apps manually)
- in JS/Qjackctl I can't include apps without JS support in a session
- in JS I can't use non-mixer
- in JS I can't include apps without JACK support (lilypond editor)
- in JS I can't leave running JACK apps outside a session (apps you've running constantly)
- in JS/Qjackctl, you can accidentally overwrite a data folder
- NSM sessions are easy to archive / backup and use on other machines. This is not the case with JS, so a session with OOM and JS can't be easily used on a other machine. What if my system crashes and I need to reinstall? Then the session is probably useless.

All this can be done with NSM, that's why I think it's just a very smart design and the best we have. Then the question is, why should one choose for a less optimal solution?

edit:
We will have jack session in right away. NSM needs OSC so it will take longer
Implementing NSM takes more or less the same effort as for JS or Ladish (according to Nedko). Afaik you find OSC in all kind of programming language libraries. Most apps/ Daws have it included already or (should) include it in future. Shouldn't you go for the best solution anyway, instead of going for the fastest solution (assuming that it is really significant faster)?

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

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studio32 wrote:Why didn't you choose for NSM? It has advantages compared to JS:

- in JS I can't close a session without saving (I've to close all apps manually)
- in JS/Qjackctl I can't include apps without JS support in a session
- in JS I can't use non-mixer
- in JS I can't include apps without JACK support (lilypond editor)
- in JS I can't leave running JACK apps outside a session (apps you've running constantly)
- in JS/Qjackctl, you can accidentally overwrite a data folder
- NSM sessions are easy to archive / backup and use on other machines. This is not the case with JS, so a session with OOM and JS can't be easily used on a other machine. What if my system crashes and I need to reinstall? Then the session is probably useless.

All this can be done with NSM, that's why I think it's just a very smart design and the best we have. Then the question is, why should one choose for a less optimal solution?

edit:
We will have jack session in right away. NSM needs OSC so it will take longer
Implementing NSM takes more or less the same effort as for JS or Ladish (according to Nedko). Afaik you find OSC in all kind of programming language libraries. Most apps/ Daws have it included already or (should) include it in future. Shouldn't you go for the best solution anyway, instead of going for the fastest solution (assuming that it is really significant faster)?
I did not know that JS had those limitations and implementing OSC is not as fast as implementing JS.

I will talk to Andrew about this and see what we will do based on this information.

Thanks!
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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studio32
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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by studio32 »

Hi Chris and Andrew,
You don't need to touch any OSC code at all for adding NSM support. :idea: The author has some kind of C++ wrapper (which he uses in the yoshimi patch) and is working on the same thing for C afaik. Even if you don't use the wrapper it's not that complicated. You probably better contact the author himself though via the website or 'male' on #lad @ freenode

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Re: For those supporting OpenOctave...

Post by ccherrett »

studio32 wrote:Hi Chris and Andrew,
You don't need to touch any OSC code at all for adding NSM support. :idea: The author has some kind of C++ wrapper (which he uses in the yoshimi patch) and is working on the same thing for C afaik. Even if you don't use the wrapper it's not that complicated. You probably better contact the author himself though via the website or 'male' on #lad @ freenode
The main issue I see is that we are looking to make openoctave the connection manager. We do not want the user to have to use the NSM session manager gui. We are looking for a transparent solution for the most part.

So we have some more thinking about it to do.

As I see it NSM is providing a GUI that does a lot of the administration that gives it what you are looking for. We were just going to code a lot of that in and not use qjackctl at all.
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

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