Paul Davis at LAC 2017

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CrocoDuck
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by CrocoDuck »

falkTX wrote:I have to correct this...
Oh I see, my bad :oops: . Thanks for pointing that out.

Drumfix
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by Drumfix »

falkTX wrote:Seems a little bit similar to PulseAudio and JACK situation nowadays...
We can run pulse through jack just fine. So how should this be similar to Win, where you cannot use ASIO and non-ASIO concurrently with the same audio interface?

I sometimes go to www.audiotool.com, create some tune and record the output directly from the browser into the daw.
Couldn't be any easier than that.

glowrak guy
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by glowrak guy »

A modernized alsa connections patchbay app to replace things like aconnectgui,
and kaconnect, would be a big help to new linux musicians.

Have it parse the available alsa connections, and display them
for selection in a scalable patchbay gui with draggable elements, as is
common for jackd patchbays. Connections existing when the app launches,
would be visualized, demistifying a few automatic processes for both
new users, and users trying a new app, like Bitwig, Mixbus, Reaper, Traktion etc,
that are quite disparate in their onscreen presentations.

Perhaps any jackd or pulse i/o ports could also be displayed,
with any conflicting connection attempts issuing a popup
describing the issue in a few words. This would simplify
using multiple input devices. Even wine i/o ports could be exposed
and presented for connections.

I'd pay for such a full-featured app, call it Patchmaster$Pro$
or yada yada yada
Cheers

glowrak guy
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by glowrak guy »

asbak wrote:The proof of that is in the Linux Audio uptake.
I think the bulk of that uptake will revolve around the linux versions of
Reaper and Mixbus, both of which are priced below most musicians pain threshold.
Mixbus offers a great mixing and mastering setup, and Reaper offers
great support for wrapped vst plugins, and amazing flexibility for sundry
production workflows.*

Purchasing and using both will be lucky.

Not that Bitwig is choopped liver. I wish a lite version was presented
up front, not bundled with redundant hardware, and not lurking
in the dusty archives of a german magazine. I'd also love an effects-only
Bitwig version. Love that drag & drop effects chain.

* I realize that Reaper is still considered mud thrown upon the
linux sacred cow nik-named Ardour. I gladly support both,
with a little stack of cold hard cash.
Cheers

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bhilmers
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by bhilmers »

CrocoDuck wrote:This is one big difference I think: if you want to write an application for Win/Mac you have one audio stack to support. For Linux... you can decide to use ALSA API or JACK API or PulseAudio API...
I agree, it seems this is the case. As I said before, Linux audio tools don't have the same polish as those monolithic programs that live in the Win/Mac world. You often need to use tools together, but sometimes can't because they don't support the same sound server.

I totally get the comparison between Win server/ASIO and Pulse/Jack. It's a valid comparison. I think the difference is, you have to be more aware of it using Linux, and sometimes there are problems (ones I've never encountered in Win/Mac). More than once I've run Pulse and Jack together only to have both of them crash, or I have to manually start Pulse after a Jack session. In my Utopian Linux fantasy, Pulse/ALSA/JACK work so well together that it takes minimal effort to set up, then you never have to think about it again until you want to (Isn't that what computers are for anyway?). KX Studio comes really close to making this a reality. I wish there were more upstream support from the large distros on this subject.

Luc
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by Luc »

bhilmers wrote:More than once I've run Pulse and Jack together only to have both of them crash, or I have to manually start Pulse after a Jack session.
What distro do you use?

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bhilmers
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by bhilmers »

Luc wrote:
bhilmers wrote:More than once I've run Pulse and Jack together only to have both of them crash, or I have to manually start Pulse after a Jack session.
What distro do you use?
Different flavors of Ubuntu over the past several years, not that it should matter. I don't want to hear Linux apologists blaming a specific distro for a Linux-wide problem. I use Ubuntu because I like how easy it is to add the KX repos, though I'm thinking of giving AV Linux another try. Last time I used it was when there were only 32-bit releases.

asbak
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by asbak »

bhilmers wrote:More than once I've run Pulse and Jack together only to have both of them crash, or I have to manually start Pulse after a Jack session. In my Utopian Linux fantasy, Pulse/ALSA/JACK work so well together that it takes minimal effort to set up, then you never have to think about it again until you want to (Isn't that what computers are for anyway?). KX Studio comes really close to making this a reality. I wish there were more upstream support from the large distros on this subject.
Whilst it's possible to have Pulse & Jack running simultaneously with some trickery, what benefits are offered by Pulse? It's laggy and just another draw on resources. Imo the ALSA (via loopback devices) + Jack combo are more useful and produce better results. Whilst it's not trivial to set up, once done it works quite well and it wouldn't be difficult for some distro or provider to automate the process if they were so inclined. If a web browser is used for piping in audio it'll need to be something like Pale Moon, perhaps Chrome which still supports ALSA. Firefox have annoyingly dropped ALSA, although (for now) it may still be possible to compile a version which includes it.

On my system Pulse & ALSA audio runs when it's just being used for "consumer audio" usage. For "music production purposes" I disable Pulse and use Jack + ALSA. When qjactctl starts it launches a script which disables Pulse before starting Jack and when it stops it runs a script which shuts down Jack and starts Pulse. It takes a bit of effort to work out the signal flow but once done and configured, all is taken care of just by stopping or starting qjackctl.

In effect one can get Pulse, ALSA & Jack to work "well together" or at least to co-exist well together just by pursuing a strategy to use each for scenarios where they are most relevant and useful. Once the hard configuration work's been done it's trivial to use.

It comes back to the flexibility vs complexity problem which exists on Linux and is less common on the commercial OS's. Solutions to many of these kinds of issues exist but it's often up to the end user to implement them. People who can't or won't learn how to do these things have much more limited options.

asbak
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by asbak »

CrocoDuck wrote: Finally, if I wanted to develop an Audio application for Linux, what should I support? JACK, PulseAudio or ALSA? All of them? Only two of them?
Define "audio app". Audio production? Consumer audio app?

Audio production: Pulse = NO. JACK = YES. ALSA = YES
Consumer Audio: Pulse = YES. JACK = NICE TO HAVE. ALSA = YES

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khz
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by khz »

FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
  • I don't care about the freedom of speech because I have nothing to say.

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CrocoDuck
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by CrocoDuck »

asbak wrote:
CrocoDuck wrote: Finally, if I wanted to develop an Audio application for Linux, what should I support? JACK, PulseAudio or ALSA? All of them? Only two of them?
Define "audio app". Audio production? Consumer audio app?

Audio production: Pulse = NO. JACK = YES. ALSA = YES
Consumer Audio: Pulse = YES. JACK = NICE TO HAVE. ALSA = YES
I don't think there exist such a sharp division. For example, at some point I would like to start creating a program to make various kinds of signal and electroacoustics measurements akin to this and this. This falls under scientific software I believe. It should be able to get audio streams with most APIs, so that it can work easily and efficiently without needing a particular system setup to exist. Which brings me to
falkTX wrote:So most applications use libraries to handle this for them.
Yes, I was indeed looking into PortAudio, but it will require me still few years of getting my head around development to be able to make a reasonable decision, depending on how I want to approach things. This is another thing worth to mention: the high number of APIs and Libraries makes the learning curve for novice programmers... pretty damn scary. And then one will have to start thinking about GUI too... which is more or less in the same situation... But this isn't exclusively a Linux problem I see. It would be nice to have it simpler in Linux world, but if things are like they are it is because how the world spins really.

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CrocoDuck
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by CrocoDuck »

Sounds very interesting! Any audio expert with some thoughts about this?

EDIT: Looking a bit like an abandoned project? Most news ended in 2012, and apparently there were not very good assumptions behind it (link) and more info and an exchange with Paul Davies here whit pretty interesting points about the project itself but also the state of Linux and Mac audio stacks and remarks on how they work. To what I could conclude for myself it seems that KLANG was actually not gonna be the brightest idea... but I just realized how much I don't know about this whole stuff.

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GMaq
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by GMaq »

bhilmers wrote: though I'm thinking of giving AV Linux another try. Last time I used it was when there were only 32-bit releases.
Hi,

I'd suggest waiting until the next release. We ship an RT kernel which truly gives great Audio performance however it also limits things with regard to proprietary AMD and nVidia Video drivers, over the past year it has come to my attention that the open source nVidia 'Nouveau' driver has major deficits that can affect audio work (I personally also suspect there are other widespread issues with Video Editors too). NOTE this only affects nVidia users (Intel and AMD should be fine). I'm working on a next release with a newer up-to-date RT kernel and hopefully we can provide a workaround for nVidia users to get the actual nVidia drivers installed. The next release will also be completely aligned with Debian Stretch and have some important KXStudio updates.

To me, aside from the Audio stuff detailed here much better by others, things like open source Video drivers performing quite badly ...:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... u-410-blob

...are not very helpful to widespread adoption of Linux in general let alone for professional level work.

Anyway back to the original topic...

glowrak guy
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by glowrak guy »

asbak wrote:even many of the longer standing members here are still struggling with fairly basic problems so where does that leave the green aspiring users?
The kids are using cellphone operating systems, mastering multiple social-media accounts,
streaming entertainment, buying things with plastic accounts, so not as green regarding technology and configuration
as you put forth. Most of the oldtimer problems arise from stupidly upgrading a working system,
to a fully unkown state of being. You get what you put in your cart. The skeletal remains are not rare.

Linux uptake among mac/win using musicians has been limited by the variety of apps people have heard of,
or currently use, and by the developers and zealots who have taken every opportunity to ridicule using wine,
and closed source tools, for many many years. That tide is slowly turning, as mac/win users grow frustrated
with software makers flailing to maintain market share, are turning to convoluted marketing schemes aimed at
locking in their customers. And slowly, linux users are opening their wallets to quality commercial offerings.

And then the inevitable Apple $ticker $hock when it's time for a new model or an upgrade :shock:
And also microsloth with it's insidious contol freak spyware OS, :twisted: Windows Tin :twisted:
At least the malware parts are guaranteed to work :lol:
Able and willing to uninstall users apps, or just write new OS version over the existing one,
on the sly. "We know you really really wanted that different version, so shutup already,
all your data R belong to us"

Completely preventing such escapades is arguably harder than starting Zynaddsubfx and Hydrogen,
from an AVLinux dvd, and pressing a record button. I wouldn't wish either mac or win
on a garage band graduate arriving home with their first real audio interface.

Learn to be free, or learn to be held captive...

Cheers

GuntherT
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Re: Paul Davis at LAC 2017

Post by GuntherT »

glowrak guy wrote: And then the inevitable Apple $ticker $hock when it's time for a new model or an upgrade :shock:
And also microsloth with it's insidious contol freak spyware OS, :twisted: Windows Tin :twisted:
At least the malware parts are guaranteed to work :lol:
Able and willing to uninstall users apps, or just write new OS version over the existing one,
on the sly. "We know you really really wanted that different version, so shutup already,
all your data R belong to us"

Completely preventing such escapades is arguably harder than starting Zynaddsubfx and Hydrogen,
from an AVLinux dvd, and pressing a record button.
I remember 10 years ago when I first came across the phrases "Windoze" and "CrApple" and thought they were mildly amusing. Today, it just sounds immature to me. Now I am reading about the "insidious control freak spyware OS" and the suggestion that Microsoft is an evil corporation by the not-so-subtle devil faces encapsulating "Windows Tin" (I don't even get the 'Tin' pun, but maybe you can fill me in). It won't surprise me to come on here one day and hear the accusation that Bill Gates is Satan incarnate. I just hope when that happens, the community will forgive me when I roll my eyes.

It seems ridiculous to me to argue that learning how to boot AVLinux and JACK sync Zynaddsubfx and Hydrogen to a DAW is somehow easier than changing the privacy settings on Windows 10. You just uncheck some boxes. You don't have to learn how to download a torrent, rip an ISO image, change your BIOS boot order, set a JACK master and slave, etc....you literally just uncheck some boxes. I am not making any statement about which OS is more secure, better for a particular purpose, or anything like that, but you seem to be under the impression that it takes more than just unchecking some boxes to prevent data from being sent to Microsoft, so I thought I would clarify that. I suppose if you believe Microsoft is an evil corporation, you probably suspect they don't abide by their own terms of service and would still secretly collect data without a user's knowledge, and if that is the case, there is likely nothing I or anyone else can say that would convince you otherwise....but seriously, you just uncheck some boxes.

That being said, AVLinux is in my opinion the best place for a newcomer to Linux audio to start. GMaq's manual is a work of art, and his distro is preconfigured to showcase some of the best Linux audio applications and plugins while making it easy to install additional software through the KXStudio repositories. I also agree with your point about young people being fairly tech-savvy given the various types of devices and applications in the wild, so they tend to be able to learn a new system quickly. However, no amount of software genius is going to get you past a hardware problem, and a lot of interfaces/devices (along with their included software) are not Linux compatible. USB Class Compliant devices have increased in number recently, which has helped a lot, and as Paul pointed out in his talk, we can thank "CrApple" for those advancements because it is the iPad, not Linux, that drove hardware manufacturers to adopt Class Compliant drivers.

I am all for increased usage of Linux audio, but let's be realistic in our assessment and understanding of the issues that make widespread adoption slow. Trying to convince the masses that OSX and Windows are bad and Linux is superior will not be enough to compensate for the limited hardware options for most, and for those that do come to Linux with their Class Compliant device, finding there are a lot of foreign software concepts they need to learn in order to get the most out of their system is not something that we can just declare is easier than changing the privacy settings on Windows 10 without alienating those individuals.

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