Step on to the future

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ssj71
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by ssj71 »

tux99 wrote:Is the MOD opensource? I can't find the published schematics and the firmware anywhere but maybe I didn't look hard enough.
tramp wrote:Things become hot now, the MOD is shortly before it's Kickstarter campaign.
This will bring the first Open Source Hardware LV2 host, to the stages of the world.
(emphasis added)

They will publish that info when its released IIUC. They seem dedicated to openness.

(I don't want to derail the thread, but is there a gpl equivalent licence for hardware design? We could start a new thread to discuss it.)
_ssj71

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glowrak guy
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by glowrak guy »

tramp wrote:Things become hot now, the MOD is shortly before it's Kickstarter campaign.
This will bring the first Open Source Hardware LV2 host, to the stages of the world.
This could be wearable, with a variety of useful straps, as the floor is not always handy
for turning knobs while performing (filter sweeps on sustain/feedback yada yada )
Could be used to augment normal foot-pedal use.

Calf plugins are high quality, among many others. Rack gear is fine, but this is a different product,
competing only indirectly. Botique products are not created as loss leaders, but innovators.
Hope it sells like Heinekens.
Cheers
tatch
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by tatch »

ssj71 wrote:
tux99 wrote:Is the MOD opensource? I can't find the published schematics and the firmware anywhere but maybe I didn't look hard enough.
tramp wrote:Things become hot now, the MOD is shortly before it's Kickstarter campaign.
This will bring the first Open Source Hardware LV2 host, to the stages of the world.
(emphasis added)

They will publish that info when its released IIUC. They seem dedicated to openness.

(I don't want to derail the thread, but is there a gpl equivalent licence for hardware design? We could start a new thread to discuss it.)
http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW
tramp
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by tramp »

The MOD Duo crowd-funding campaign will be launched this week on Kickstarter.com
This is your chance to get the MOD Duo with a huge price discount.

There are stretch goals during the campaign in order to produce the MOD Duo with even better features, such as a 24 bits USB audio interface, an unibody aluminum casing and a 50% faster processor.

The more people involved in the campaign the better MOD Duo will get.
On the road again.
Gianfranco
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by Gianfranco »

Hi Everybody

This is Gianfranco, from the MOD Team.

I'd like to thank tramp for posting info about our endeavor.

Tomorrow at 9AM Pacific Time we open the MOD Duo Kickstarter campaign.

The early bird price is U$299 - limited to 150 units - and the regular price is U$349. Expression pedal and External Footswitch can be added for U$75 each. Arduino Chain available also for an extra U$25.

Aswering some of Tux99 questions and remarks:

- the Lexicon MPX 550 is really a nice unit. I've used one and agree with you that the it sounds amazing. I used to play with a Alesis QuadraVerb which is similar but only 16bit and already sounded nice enough. The thing is that to compare it with a MOD Duo for me is awkward. The MXP is a fragile rack unit with line level inputs and a limited set of effects (and with part of those limited effects with long latencies being horrible for real time audio). The MOD, on the other hand, is a sturdy foot unit with triple input circuit (line, instrument and mic) and unlimited plugin options, plus internal arranging. I find kind of difficult to compare them. I believe that if EVERYTHING you need is included inside the Lexicon it might be a better option as you say,but what if I need any extra effect?

- The huge Lexicon's reverb quality notwithstanding, the quality of the LV2 plugins is not crappy as you say. Specially in the reverb area. Zita and Calf are good examples of well written and great sounding effects.

- it is not possible for us, at this time with our size and scale, to offer a processor at the sub U$200 price range. That is probably what we'll try do with an eventual MOD Uno in case things go ok, but that is definitely not the case right now. Nevertheless I believe that relying on used equipment that might or might not be available for the said price is kind of dreamy. I agree that you've got a good deal on yours but you shouldn't generalize your experience as if it was something readily available off the shelf. Right now if you search for MPX 550 on ebay you'll only find a single listing with the U$200 price tag, in the "as is" state and with no guarantees. Also, if the search for used equipment rises I can assure you prices will rise as well. The only reason that such a good sounding unit is so cheap is that people don't want it. Not everybody sees in the MPX550 the solution for all their necessities as you seem to do. Finally, from a manufacturer point of view, the affirmation "so this MOD device needs to be cheap to compete with the second-hand market of professional gear" is kind of silly. We need to be cheap for a great number of reasons, but definitely not this one.

- the MOD Linux related software is all open source but the hardware and the firmware are not. Not yet. We are trying to build a hardware company and, different from software companies, hardware require huge sums of money to take off. After an eventually successful Kickstarter we will go for an Venture Capital investment round and the Open Hardware might cause some troubles in this process. Our Arduino Shield is all open, both software and hardware, and so will be the Arduino Controllers.

[added later] one of our stretch goals is to make a custom CoreBoard (a small CPU+RAM+FLASH board that runs the embedded Linux based OS) with a faster processor. This shall be open hardware as well.

- the pictures you see on the site are from our Acrylic prototype. The production model is cased in metal and I assure it is built like a tank.

Kind regards

Gianfranco
The MOD Team
tux99
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by tux99 »

Hi Gianfranco, welcome, I appreciate your comments.

The Lexicon MPX550 was purely one example (as I said myself when I first mentioned it), the fact is you can get second-hand professional quality multi-FX units all the time on ebay or craigslist or other similar sites for well under $200 (or under 150 Euros).
There are many units available with guitar level inputs too, not only line level inputs.
Gianfranco wrote:- the MOD Linux related software is all open source but the hardware and the firmware are not. Not yet. We are trying to build a hardware company and, different from software companies, hardware require huge sums of money to take off. After an eventually successful Kickstarter we will go for an Venture Capital investment round and the Open Hardware might cause some troubles in this process.
So to put it in a few words, you are simply another hardware manufacturer using Linux and open source software for your own profit, just like Korg for example does with their Kronos workstations (that run Linux inside) or Google with Android or in fact loads of other gadget manufacturers.

There is nothing wrong with that of course, most FOSS licences after all allow this, but in this thread the wrong impression was given that you are the "first Full Open Source Hardware Vendor" (as tramp said in post #7) which couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm sure tramp did not make this statement to deceive us, but because he simply was confused himself.

So thanks for clearing this up.

To conclude, while your project is interesting in principle, I stand by my opinion that it's overpriced for what you get when compared to the competition and from a FOSS point of view I don't see any particular reason why I should support you any more than I should support Korg or Google.
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by tramp »

aaaannnndddd here we go, the future is now.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mo ... ects-pedal

In the same run Gian (hey) makes this announcement on LAU/LAD mailing-list, which shows how connected MOD.com is to the ProAudio OpenSource Community.
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/l ... 99230.html

Go with tuxinator and stay in the past and pray that all the LV2 effects/synths are crappy shit :lol:
or move your ass and Step on to the future :wink:
On the road again.
tatch
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by tatch »

tux99 wrote:To conclude, while your project is interesting in principle, I stand by my opinion that it's overpriced for what you get when compared to the competition and from a FOSS point of view I don't see any particular reason why I should support you any more than I should support Korg or Google.
Your opinions don't greatly affect me, I don't have the resources or the need for a MOD at the moment, but I do want to reiterate points of yours I still think are fallacious:

* as gianfranco said, used product price points aren't a valid metric for pricing new products. If all products were priced to compete with the used aftermarket then prices would be indefinitely deflating or something absurd and nonsensical like that. I still think the most valid product comparison is with something like the line 6 thing which disappointingly no one else has addressed.

* as I and gianfranco have said, there is a not-insignificant difference in form and (physical) functionality between rack units and stompboxes

* while not open hardware ("yet"), the creators of MOD have in fact contributed back to the community by helping the guitarix team (i think) and, as falktx said, "porting caps to LV2 (and probably more) and [having] their own host code published on github."

* this product offers not only a ground set of existing plugins from LAU but also a framework of straightforward and powerful extensibility unavailable in both traditional rack and pedal units. Developers for the MOD are also developing for LAU. quality of effects you get in the MOD will be directly linked to what you can achieve in LAU. I'd say that's worth supporting a little.
ssj71
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by ssj71 »

tatch wrote:
tux99 wrote:To conclude, while your project is interesting in principle, I stand by my opinion that it's overpriced for what you get when compared to the competition and from a FOSS point of view I don't see any particular reason why I should support you any more than I should support Korg or Google.
Your opinions don't greatly affect me, I don't have the resources or the need for a MOD at the moment, but I do want to reiterate points of yours I still think are fallacious:

* as gianfranco said, used product price points aren't a valid metric for pricing new products. If all products were priced to compete with the used aftermarket then prices would be indefinitely deflating or something absurd and nonsensical like that. I still think the most valid product comparison is with something like the line 6 thing which disappointingly no one else has addressed.

* as I and gianfranco have said, there is a not-insignificant difference in form and (physical) functionality between rack units and stompboxes

* while not open hardware ("yet"), the creators of MOD have in fact contributed back to the community by helping the guitarix team (i think) and, as falktx said, "porting caps to LV2 (and probably more) and [having] their own host code published on github."

* this product offers not only a ground set of existing plugins from LAU but also a framework of straightforward and powerful extensibility unavailable in both traditional rack and pedal units. Developers for the MOD are also developing for LAU. quality of effects you get in the MOD will be directly linked to what you can achieve in LAU. I'd say that's worth supporting a little.
+1. Many of the largest contributors to open source software are companies using it for profit. They have a vested interest in the project's success and future and they share whatever bugfixes and improvements they might create openly with the whole community. A major advantage over closed platforms, worth supporting.
_ssj71

music: https://soundcloud.com/ssj71
My plugins are Infamous! http://ssj71.github.io/infamousPlugins
I just want to get back to making music!
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GMaq
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by GMaq »

All I can say is that I can't wait for June 2015!! :D :twisted: :D

Sincere best of luck to the MODsters, looking good so far!!

Please note that there is opportunity to make a $5 donation and help get a MOD Duo into the hands of tramp, Harry and MANY other talented and generous developers of effects in our community!
Gianfranco
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by Gianfranco »

Hi everybody

As many here seen, today we've launched our campaign in Kickstarter and up to now we have 28% funding towards our goal. We are very excited here and hope you guys are too.

I feel a little sad about Tux99's comments because the tone bears me a feeling that somehow we are "usurping" the open source concept. We struggle everyday to find ways to give the community all knowledge we are able to give.

As I said, all Control Chain related stuff (Arduino Shield, controllers, Protocol, Arduino Library, etc) is fully open. You can go you our wiki and check it out. We even used an open source software for the PCBs - KiCad - in order to make sure that the community would have 100% access.

http://wiki.portalmod.com/wiki/MOD_Arduino_Shield

Also, the Coreboard, containing all the computing elements of the MOD, and on which runs our Linux distro, is going to be open hardware as well in case we come to use a custom made. This includes a baseboard with Audio Codecs and all necessary connections (video, usb, etc). With this material Linux developers will be able to create their own devices, sort like the CubieBoard and other related dev-boards, but totally geared to Audio use.

I sure hope the community understand that we have to go slowly on this matter. Differently from Korg and Google, we're a very tiny company struggling to flourish. It is a pitty that some people put us on the same side as them.

Best wishes for all

Gianfranco
motosega
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by motosega »

nice to see MOD finaly getting ready for release,

looks like a great product, i hope you much success!

i'm just sad i don't play guitar.

one thing i have to question is the interface for external pedals, why not just use standard 1/4" jacks?
Gianfranco
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by Gianfranco »

motosega wrote:nice to see MOD finaly getting ready for release,

looks like a great product, i hope you much success!

i'm just sad i don't play guitar.

one thing i have to question is the interface for external pedals, why not just use standard 1/4" jacks?
The 1/4 jacks carry at most 3 wires (when a TRS model is used).

Since the Control Chain (our external peripheral system) is all digital and we did not want the peripherals to need and energy supply (the energy comes form the MOD and only one cable is necessary), we chose to use a 4 wire connection.

From all options that are available we figured the RJ-45 CAT cables would be the most interesting ones. They are cheap, very easy to get and can be crimped in the length you need.

Makes sense?

Kind regards

Gianfranco
ssj71
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by ssj71 »

I didn't realize it would be so extensible with switches and expression pedals! Now I really want one! :\ Gotta still save up for my studio monitors though. Anyone know if the switches can be toggle or momentary? It would be nice to have both.

Best of luck!
_ssj71

music: https://soundcloud.com/ssj71
My plugins are Infamous! http://ssj71.github.io/infamousPlugins
I just want to get back to making music!
Gianfranco
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Re: Step on to the future

Post by Gianfranco »

ssj71 wrote:I didn't realize it would be so extensible with switches and expression pedals! Now I really want one! :\ Gotta still save up for my studio monitors though. Anyone know if the switches can be toggle or momentary? It would be nice to have both.

Best of luck!
That is very good question

They are physically momentary and the toggle behaviour is defined by software.

All this is part of the ControlChain protocol, our hardware communication based on the LV2 controls ports. The devices send to the host a descriptor of their actuators and which kind of ports they support and with this info the GUI decides what to offer in terms of ControlPort addressing.

http://wiki.portalmod.com/wiki/Control_Chain

Going to a practical case, In the case of the footswitch it supports:

- bypass (nowadays is not a port and is decided by the host but this is to change in LV2)
- toggle ports
- trigger ports
- enumeration ports (round robin list)
- tap-tempo - this is very cool . We have a chronometer built in the controller and thus it can receive parameters that have tempo based units (seg, ms, bpm, hz). This makes tap tempo possible without internal plugin implementation.

Kind regards

Gianfranco

ps: I've already uploaded some of your "Infamous plugins" to the MOD Cloud. I simply love the Stuck (yes, I'm a big Bill Frisell fan!!!)
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