Linux music as a major player...

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ssj71
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by ssj71 »

alex stone wrote: would the company be better served in "removing" some of that choice, and building and maintaining a dedicated distro, in which ALL the community pour their effort, with the potential for a mutual community reward. (And if this horrifies some of you, then do you want a financially sound company based on a common code set that devs can work with, or stick with the myriad of choices, and dissipate the energies of not only devs, but other important contributors, like manual writers, website builders, those who will enthusiastically market the company, those who test?)
I'm all for collaboration, but a germane part of open source is freedom. That includes freedom to fork or collaborate. I always hope (and encorage) devs to collaborate which I think yeilds better results, but the instant you try to enforce that, to force collaboration, it will break. People will work on whatever they want and if you remove their ability to work on that, they just won't work, (really they just won't share what they work on). I agree with the concept, but I think its impossible to implement, beyond encouraging, persuading, mediating, and helping everyone play nice together.
alex stone wrote:Who decides which projects are "worthy", and what the design and commercial intent of The Linux Audio Company takes? Is it just electronica/sampling/synth based, or does the company go the whole nine metres, and build for all, in the same marketplace and user demographic as mainstream commercial offerings?
Perhaps stating the obvious, but if you are doing a business venture you (are stupid not to) do your market research. Go where the money is. If its spread across all genres and you have to resources to make specific tools for it, awesome, if not, find your niche. Someone needs to be willing to do this research, and if conducted well, I think the numbers will be reasonably convincing for the group.
alex stone wrote:Who sets quality control standards, and can build relationships with devs to collaborate in a constructive, mutally beneficial team, where some personal design choices may be put aside for the greater good, and in the pursuit of consistency across the distro? Will devs be willing to modify, or some cases even give up their ideas (at least in the LACompany structure) to have their app in the pot? (with the potential for financial gain.)
Once again, you can beg, you can plead, but in the end in an ecosystem where you cannot force collaboration it has to come from the devs. We're really talking about a Co-op I think. Its based on mutual agreement of terms and if you don't agree, you don't want to join. The challenge is making joining appealing enough to gain that critical mass.
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habbe
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by habbe »

falkTX wrote:I think selling linux-audio binaries would not be the issue.
The issue is that most users don't have systems ready to be used for audio production.

Take a freshly installed Ubuntu system.
A user looks for something to make music and downloads/buys ardour.
Upon startup, ardour will complain that jack is not running and try to start it. But this will fail since the default Ubuntu uses pulseaudio doesn't include the pulseaudio-module-jack package (needed for pulse to give up the sound card temporarily).

Maybe this can be "fixed" by ensuring the ardour package installs pulseaudio-module-jack and jack2 (for jackdbus).
But even with this, the user will be confused when the Ubuntu mixer stops working while ardour is running.
You are absolutely right. This is the most serious problem of all IMO.

First of all, I don't think compiling a program is enough service for people to pay for. Two other areas are more important and I think people would want to pay for them: setting up your system and bugfixes. Both of these require too much from the average user at the moment.

There really is untapped potential (and market) in Linux audio, and some one just has to take the plunge and create a product that sells. Linux audio in general, plugins, DAWs and everything sound related is connected. The average customer (maybe a semi-pro musician?) does not want to learn about setting up a Linux system. He or she wants to create music, period. The product needs to be ready for production. Just getting Ardour ready is not enough.

Read again the post I quoted. Linux audio is a mess, it is the nature of the beast. As someone who has used Linux and Ardour for the past seven years, I still would pay money for someone to set up my system in an optimal way (kernels, irq-stuff, priorities, automatic jackd in the background all the time, automatic pulseaudio-jack in the background all the time, no xruns etc.), and I would pay money for someone to report the bugs I'm encountering so that they can be fixed.
kawliga
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by kawliga »

I've noticed that Linux Mint is getting $10,000 worth of donations a month.

http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2669

Perhaps we should ask Clem (Mint Project leader) what his secret is.

Dave Phillips interviewed Paul Davis a few years ago and there was one thing Paul said that really struck me.

"If I could pay the right three people to work on Ardour, it's hard to imagine what we could not do."

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10295?page=0,2

It is so frustrating to see the potential that Linux audio has which is not being realised due to lack of funding.
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by i2productions »

kawliga wrote:Perhaps we should ask Clem (Mint Project leader) what his secret is.
Develop the easiest to use Linux based OS for the largest number of people by listening to the people. Now that said, that's exactly what paul has done for 10 years with Ardour! We've compared how they're the same, but the thing that makes them apples and oranges is the audience. I think paul has a shining model already for a "small" user base. Having an easy to use Linux OS applies to a very broad base of people. Paul usually comes close til his $54,000 funding goal every year. For a product that can be obtained for free, that level of donation seems amazing to me! If ardour was a commercial product, paul would probably be a richer man, but I don't think money is his sole driving force behind backing off of Ardour. As soon as Harrison tweaks Ardour 3 into their own product with fewer bugs I will probably buy a copy of Mixbus. Ardour 3 seems to be a perpertual beta. In fact, with the kind of bugs I'm experiencing on a daily basis with the current build, 3 was more stable when it was in beta!(albeit missing features, but more stable.)

In conclusion, apples, oranges, paul, perpetual beta, bugs, and Mixbus! Nuff said....maybe?!..
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by kawliga »

Linux Mint have an ideas section on their website where anyone can propose an idea. Others can comment on the idea and upvote or downvote it. Clem and the other Mint developers read all the ideas from what I can gather.

I have drafted an idea. I've tried to keep it short and to the point. Would appreciate feedback from anyone here. I realise the Mint developers will probably say "no" but anything is worth a try. If enough of us upvoted the idea and showed support for the idea in the comments they would have to consider it.
Have a version of the Mintbox designed and optimised for audio production.

Linux has enormous potential as a platform for audio production. Unfortunately, to date, it has not realised this potential.

Part of the reason is that there is a high bar of entry. At present, someone who wants to make music on Linux would need to research which soundcards work well with Linux and purchase and install the soundcard themselves and then install and configure the software themselves. This is a massive deterent to the widespread adoption of Linux as a Music making platform and, by extension, as a Desktop platform in general, since an enormous number of people - not just professional musicians - wish to create music on their computer. Also, none of the big name distros cater that well to audio production (eg. they ship with pulseaudio instead of JACK) whereas specialist audio distros such as AV Linux and KXStudio, although very good, lack name recognition and the resources to produce their own hardware.

My idea is to have a Mintbox which is designed for audio. It could use inexpensive components as one of the advantages of Linux audio is that it works very well on very modest hardware. It would have a Linux friendly soundcard installed and preconfigured to work great out of the box. A low latency kernel would be pre installed, as would JACK, Ardour and other audio software.

All the end user would need to do is plug in their instrument, boot up and start making music.

It could be called MintStudio or something like that.

A small sum from the sale of each machine could go towards funding the development of linux audio software such as Ardour. This would help to make MintStudio even better.

A desktop PC that is designed and optimised specifically for audio production would be something very unique and appealing to many who want something that "just works".
glowrak guy
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by glowrak guy »

Making the Mint that ships on the Mintbox 2 into a pro-audio distro, is easy.
A modern usb audio interface for it, adds another $50 or so, used or new.
Pro audio on usb is a non-starter for some, so a Mintbox 2 variant with
pci and firewire support, is going to reqire a more expensive motherboard,
case, and power supply, losing the price, size, and coolness advantages.
Industry margins are already tight, and buying parts in lots less than
10,000, is a problem. That would put Compulab in price competition with industry giants.
Not where you want to be, for selling a linux system of inexpensive audio components

It will be interesting to see how Steam gaming effects linux uptake,
and the extent to which any audio/video processing improvements it provides,
become mainstream. I suspect we'll be stuck with rolling our own hardware combinations,
for a few more years.

A bootable SSD in a usb3 casing would be interesting, almost as fast
as on an internal bus, and portable.

It looks like a new version of Studio1337 is imminent, and all the traditional
audio distros keep getting better, Bitwig, Traktion, Ardour, Qtractor, and various wine based daws,
mean there should be something excellent for everyone to produce music with. 8)
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by briandc »

Boy, I wish I could make a DVD iso image of my system for others to use for free!! Up and ready to go!

-Problem is, other people might not have the exact PC hardware setup that I do. ..Then what???



brian
Have your PC your way: use linux!
My sound synthesis biome: http://www.linuxsynths.com
glowrak guy
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by glowrak guy »

pclinuxos has a script called mylivecd, that creates an iso
to burn a bootable dvd. (don't many distros have similar?) You need 10 gig
or more linux filesystem free space for it to work in, (no ntfs)
and can specify any folders you wish to exclude,
on the command line, give it a name etc or just let it run at default
if you know you are within size parameters.

In my case, a fairly stripped down system booting into E19, with just enough KDE for k3b,
and konqueror, it produces a 1gig iso, that has probably 85% of what
most would consider the linux pro audio apps. I exlude a couple of
folders of commercial apps that are too big for a dvd anyway, but it's easy
to shuffle things around temporarily for custom builds.

For distribution, you should do a fresh install, update with your customizations,
remove any personal data and naming conventions from/home/you
and modify boot parameters for autoboot without password.
The kernel should do the hardware detection at boot time anyway.
Does remastersys let you do this for AVLinux?
cheers

Cheers
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by tramp »

glowrak guy wrote:pclinuxos has a script called mylivecd, that creates an iso
to burn a bootable dvd. (don't many distros have similar?) You need 10 gig
or more linux filesystem free space for it to work in, (no ntfs)
and can specify any folders you wish to exclude,
on the command line, give it a name etc or just let it run at default
if you know you are within size parameters.

In my case, a fairly stripped down system booting into E19, with just enough KDE for k3b,
and konqueror, it produces a 1gig iso, that has probably 85% of what
most would consider the linux pro audio apps. I exlude a couple of
folders of commercial apps that are too big for a dvd anyway, but it's easy
to shuffle things around temporarily for custom builds.

For distribution, you should do a fresh install, update with your customizations,
remove any personal data and naming conventions from/home/you
and modify boot parameters for autoboot without password.
The kernel should do the hardware detection at boot time anyway.
Does remastersys let you do this for AVLinux?
cheers

Cheers
And what do you expect from this? It's just a other fragmentation which ends up in a One man show, by the upstream unsupported installation which leads the user sooner or later, to the conclusion
"what a crap, linux is. No support, it doesn’t fit together, and it just didn't work"
It'll be much better to include all the nice tools we have into the mainstream distributions(debian, ubuntu fedora, arch, slack,...), which have (or could have if we all work together) the manpower to take care for the whole picture, instead fight your own "I know it better, then those who do it the last 10 years, war".
Now, were we didn't need a special rt-kernel anymore (many thanks to the rt-kernel team for all the incredible work they have done in the last years), we are close to simple mainstream distribution pro-audio systems ( imagine, during the installation process you get asked, "which system do you wont to install? Desktop? Server? Multimedia? Developer? Games? Office? Pro-audio?).

my 2 cents
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GMaq
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by GMaq »

glowrak guy wrote: Does remastersys let you do this for AVLinux?
Absolutely!! It's all part of the package, If a sloped-brow simian like me can do it so can you! :wink:
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by tatch »

briandc wrote:Boy, I wish I could make a DVD iso image of my system for others to use for free!! Up and ready to go!

-Problem is, other people might not have the exact PC hardware setup that I do. ..Then what???



brian
I agree with tramp, there is little benefit for the community in you doing this. If you want to help with this sort of thing I think it is better to learn how to help falk or gmaq with their existing distros.
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by briandc »

tatch wrote:
briandc wrote:Boy, I wish I could make a DVD iso image of my system for others to use for free!! Up and ready to go!

-Problem is, other people might not have the exact PC hardware setup that I do. ..Then what???



brian
I agree with tramp, there is little benefit for the community in you doing this. If you want to help with this sort of thing I think it is better to learn how to help falk or gmaq with their existing distros.
Actually I'm already using falkTX's distro. The issue is, that apparently some people are having problems getting things set-up. I too had to do a bit of tweaking here and there, but it wasn't anything impossible. On the contrary. The problems come, imo, when you have different hardware setups across PCs. What works for one person may be useless for another.

So having a real "hardware friendly" distro is the key, I suppose..


brian
Have your PC your way: use linux!
My sound synthesis biome: http://www.linuxsynths.com
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by glowrak guy »

tramp wrote:
glowrak guy wrote:pclinuxos has a script called mylivecd, that creates an iso
to burn a bootable dvd. (don't many distros have similar?) You need 10 gig
or more linux filesystem free space for it to work in, (no ntfs)
and can specify any folders you wish to exclude,
on the command line, give it a name etc or just let it run at default
if you know you are within size parameters.

In my case, a fairly stripped down system booting into E19, with just enough KDE for k3b,
and konqueror, it produces a 1gig iso, that has probably 85% of what
most would consider the linux pro audio apps. I exlude a couple of
folders of commercial apps that are too big for a dvd anyway, but it's easy
to shuffle things around temporarily for custom builds.

For distribution, you should do a fresh install, update with your customizations,
remove any personal data and naming conventions from/home/you
and modify boot parameters for autoboot without password.
The kernel should do the hardware detection at boot time anyway.
Does remastersys let you do this for AVLinux?
cheers

Cheers
And what do you expect from this? It's just a other fragmentation which ends up in a One man show,
Typically, this type of linux release, is for people who help their family and friends,
or the drummer :lol: Those who are newbies, or whose computers have been laid waste by malware,
need some friendly support, and don't need much in an OS beyond email , browser, a media player, choice of wallpaper and theme. Nobody is suggesting more than being able to help those in their circle of aquaintance. If Brian hangs out with musician friends, it's pretty sensible to share the things
that bring enjoyment to music making.
diizy
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by diizy »

briandc wrote:Actually I'm already using falkTX's distro. The issue is, that apparently some people are having problems getting things set-up. I too had to do a bit of tweaking here and there, but it wasn't anything impossible. On the contrary. The problems come, imo, when you have different hardware setups across PCs.
Yes, but this problem is pretty much unavoidable, until the day comes when all hardware is open and standardized...

It's not just audio Linux distros, it's not even just Linux distros in general - with any OS you run into problems with hardware compatibility. For example, Windows gets around this by customizing their OS for each OEM so that the customer gets a ready working setup... but if you've ever tried installing a generic, non-OEM windows to some random laptop, you'll see that the same hardware compatibility problems are right there...

So if you want something that is usable "out of the box" you pretty much need to bundle it with the hardware. That's pretty much the only guaranteed way...
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Re: Linux music as a major player...

Post by tramp »

briandc wrote:Actually I'm already using falkTX's distro. The issue is, that apparently some people are having problems getting things set-up. I too had to do a bit of tweaking here and there, but it wasn't anything impossible. On the contrary. The problems come, imo, when you have different hardware setups across PCs. What works for one person may be useless for another.

So having a real "hardware friendly" distro is the key, I suppose..


brian
And, what do you think is needed to come a bit closer to this real "hardware friendly" distro? If you ship a copy of your tweaks to your "friends", were it may fit or not, or, collect the information you have sorted out, with those of other "hardware users", and develop a detection tool, to set up the system during installation, to fit the used hardware "for the best knowledge"?
That is, what linux distribution maintainers are work on, and you may notice, that it get better and better (now you just need little tweaks anymore, missing feedback information???).
Ship back, lay back, relax, and better ship the real thing (even if you believe you could do it better, become a part of the"linux project", instead "rool your own"), report back, and slowly, slowly, (that is what stable means in my eyes) slip into the future, is much better then jump forehead and die.
glowrak guy wrote:Typically, this type of linux release, is for people who help their family and friends,
or the drummer :lol: Those who are newbies, or whose computers have been laid waste by malware,
need some friendly support, and don't need much in an OS beyond email , browser, a media player, choice of wallpaper and theme. Nobody is suggesting more than being able to help those in their circle of aquaintance. If Brian hangs out with musician friends, it's pretty sensible to share the things
that bring enjoyment to music making.
See above.

And Brian, I know you do exactly this on the synth part, that’s why I can't understand your stance about the OS part.
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