Linux music as a major player...

[nils]

If this thread ends in the near future: How about someone, maybe a person not even heavily involved in the discussion, makes an article out of it? Summarize different viewpoints and arguments and draw conclusions, create tasks and ask questions.
You know, like real journalism. Something that a "major player" truly deserves. If not scientific then at least quality editing and processing of the non-code, non-documentary/tutorial information.

[kawliga]

I suggested in a previous post about Ardour binaries possibly being sold through Apple's Mac OS X app store.

Another possibility would be selling Ardour binaries on Steam.

Please note, I am NOT suggesting to make Ardour exclusively available in such a way, but it could significantly increase awareness of Ardour and folks who would never otherwise hear of Ardour may purchase it. Also, it would greatly simplify the payment process - anyone who uses the Mac OS X app store or Steam already has a payment account setup, so buying Ardour would require simply a single click to add it to your cart. When buying something is so easy, you are a lot more likely to buy it. If you have to go through the rigmarole of setting up a PayPal account just to buy one thing you are a lot more likely to think "forget it".

Most people buy software these days through an app store.

FL Studio has recently been greenlit and will be available through Steam in the near future - this has generated massive interest on Steam, so Steam is not just for folks who are only interested in games.

On Steam it is possible to not only buy a product outright (which is the norm) but also to subscribe to a product.

[briandc]

I think folks are making some great points here.

I think we do expect too much of devs, although I do think perhaps sometimes devs are too kind and well natured for their own good and end up taking too much on.

The other night I was logged into #ardour on irc but I was away from my computer doing other things. When I came back, I noticed that Paul Davis had had a lengthy dialogue with a new user about how to get JACK running. It is fantastic that Paul is so responsive and so willing to help everyone, but I'm sure there are many of us who could have helped the new person to get JACK running. Is it the best use of Paul's time to be doing stuff like this? Perhaps we should have an irc channel dedicated specifically towards helping beginners where those of us who are experienced users could offer support on routine queries?

I'm not saying that Paul should be aloof and not interact with users but that perhaps this is an area where those of us who are experienced users could help lighten the load a bit.

Brian's youtube idea is a good one - there are not that many good Ardour or Linux audio tutorials on youtube.

I think this is where distros like AVlinux shines most; many users don't want to have to ask someone how Jack works (or other technical questions) and I think these audio-specific distros are helping A LOT. There are those who want things to work out-of-the-box, and there are those who want to tweak things as they see fit.
With an audio-specific distro, any questions would most likely be directed at the distro forum itself, and not at people like Paul who are, justifiedly so, very busy with their work.

So, while linux is nice as a modular set-up, I can see how many people may just want something pre-set-up and ready to go. This is a good first-in for those trying open source for the first time, imo..

brian

[kawliga]

Thinking back again to the OP, and the matter of "Linux as a major player", what difference (if any) do people think Bitwig could have?

Bitwig seems to have gotten a favorable reception with many folks speaking highly of it, although it remains to be seen whether it will be able to gain a significant share of an already crowded market.

If Bitwig were to become popular - I realise that is a big if - could this mean more hardware vendors supporting Linux and more plugins and samples becoming available for Linux?

Could Bitwig help Linux become a respected platform for music production?

[ssj71]

The idea of advertizing... that might be a useful strategy. And it isn't always expensive. Putting a screencast on youtube is advertizing, and it's free!

+1000!

The other night I was logged into #ardour on irc but I was away from my computer doing other things. When I came back, I noticed that Paul Davis had had a lengthy dialogue with a new user about how to get JACK running. It is fantastic that Paul is so responsive and so willing to help everyone, but I'm sure there are many of us who could have helped the new person to get JACK running. Is it the best use of Paul's time to be doing stuff like this? Perhaps we should have an irc channel dedicated specifically towards helping beginners where those of us who are experienced users could offer support on routine queries?

I'm not saying that Paul should be aloof and not interact with users but that perhaps this is an area where those of us who are experienced users could help lighten the load a bit.

agreed. Perhaps the community could help produce "#ardour-dev" so work gets done on one channel, and the other channel is for support? I'm sure Paul would lurk in both, but it might help other users contribute in this way better.
I think this anecdote is (albeit anecdotal) evidence that users tend to look at the highest level tool for what they want. They came to #ardour because that is what they wanted to use. They end up installing linux and JACK so they can use it (which is fantastic!) but ardour is the reason they bothered. But this comes back to that idea that people are more likely to switch/learn new backends (OS's etc) to get a frontend (daws, other tools, etc) than the other way around.

If Bitwig were to become popular - I realise that is a big if - could this mean more hardware vendors supporting Linux and more plugins and samples becoming available for Linux?

Could Bitwig help Linux become a respected platform for music production?

.
I think it will if Bitwig becomes popular on LINUX. If a market arises, someone will tap into it. So far few companies have evaluated the linux market to be large enough to justify the development. I'm sure they look at it. A marketing team's whole existence is to identify potential markets and advertise to them. Hopefully that perception will change. Bitwig could become a factor, and it certainly won't hurt (unless it crashes and burns and unfairly blames linux). More likely it will help if something made for bitwig in general happens to work for linux as well. Kinda like how there are lots more USB 2.0 class compliant audio interfaces because iOS requires CC. Thats great for linux, but its a side effect. Perhaps if LV2 plugin support was ported to Bitwig on all platforms it would raise awareness at least, possibly make some new LV2 devs on various platforms that would hopefully be more open to releasing linux versions of their plugins. Quite a few contingencies in that scenario though. :\

[kawliga]

I'd be curious to know what made Bitwig decide to make a Linux version when the overwhelming majority of music software and hardware vendors behave as if Linux doesn't exist.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - more interest in Linux is always nice - but I'm so accustomed to Linux being ignored in the musical field that it surprises me and makes me wonder why they decided to do this.

[sysrqer]

I'd be curious to know what made Bitwig decide to make a Linux version when the overwhelming majority of music software and hardware vendors behave as if Linux doesn't exist.

I think possibly because they are in direct and fierce competition with ableton live. As far as I can see Bitwig looked at all the things that were lacking in Live and that had been requested for a long time by the Live users, linux support being one of them, and implemented them. It gives them a competitive edge and a whole market where their competitor is no longer a competitor. If Ableton ever decides to support linux (would be interesting to see if they do since Bitwig does) then most people who would be potential customers will probably have purchased and settled in to using Bitwig.

[glowrak guy]

I'd be curious to know what made Bitwig decide to make a Linux version when the overwhelming majority of music software and hardware vendors behave as if Linux doesn't exist.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - more interest in Linux is always nice - but I'm so accustomed to Linux being ignored in the musical field that it surprises me and makes me wonder why they decided to do this.

When the old established boxed-set daw apps were born, linux was lacking hardware
support, and wine experiments, were not dreamed of.

Fast forward 10 years, and people can find good audio interfaces working in linux,
a solid base of linux apps and instruments, and the ability to run many excellent
windows apps.

Now Bitwig arrives, not steeped in old predjudices, with a team able to code and compile
the now low hanging linux fruit. Linux users could have snubbed the bitwig release,
based on some daft omissions, but instead, have dug into the available scripts and code,
as well as the linux toolbox, and exposed the spinal cord to those with nerves to connect.

Native Instruments, an industry giant, and bitwig neighbor, have a vein of linux running
within their management, and test some, if not all of their hardware in some linux.
I would not be shocked to see some future partnering. They would make a formidable
competitor Vs the Yamaha bankrolled Steinberg/Cubase juggernaut. I think Korg
have some linux under their keyboard hoods, adding them to such a coalition,
could really be fun, and having the lot become Android enabled, could pose
a healthy a challenge to the iOS collective. Is that light I see at the end of the tunnel,
or fireworks of the imagination, or both?
Cheers

[Petra-Sue]

Hello folks,

even though I have been silent for some time now within this thread, let me draw *my* conclusions from the arguments furthered so far:

# Even if most of the FOSS programmers do their jobs for recognition and fame there should be a possibility to support them financially at least for certain periods.

# Collecting money will require to create some organizing structure to handle it and to redistribute it. But of course this structure should not develop into some overhead moloch. So it would be sensible to organize that in a similar way as the development itself is.

# In the light of numerous existing and not too bad base distributions it is rather unlikely that a music oriented base distribution will be able to be sold to create respective revenue.

# Money can be collected via "added value" to a basically freely distributed base system. "Added value" means individual adaptation work or guaranteed response times in case of a (musical) emergency etc.. This will, in addition, add value to potential users w/r/to perceived reliability, by having a defined contact that can be addressed in such cases. In a mutual consent devs would have to agree to the fact that beyond their original drive to freely develop their individual FOSS they should be willing to tackle individual requirements at certain times to support the network. This basic consent could even be the basic requirement that they may apply for financial aid in later stages?

# Beyond the pure coding and application-centered testing for quality there should be (honorary) persons to scrutinize potential users' requirements and needs, in order to forward them to the devs. These "institutionalized" scrutinizers would quite likely be musicians/users that communicate existing developments by using and showcasing them to the broad public. As pointed out in some of the later contributions to this thread the importance and number of these communicators (in other words: salespersons) is not to be underestimated!

# Devs should accept that, beyond putting their own ideas into code, informational returns from the users collected by the "salespersons" should be taken into consideration in order to keep the whole system functional, interesting and apealing to the whole community.


Just my personal experience and view w/r/to the Linux audio environment (as I think I have stated earlier): I like to produce baroque, classical, or folk music with a wind controller as midi input, on a dilettant level. I have the notion that there are quite a lot of other people like me that would be "potential customers", both as users of basic distros and of individualized counseling. I would love to act as a multiplier/evangelizer/... for FOSS in the musical domain. I have done some basic programming tinkering on Linux, but not on an advanced level like the typical devs of recognized applications, so I deem myself at least mostly appropriate to communicate development achievements and "consumer" requirements in either direction.

I asked repeatedly for additional information to set up an appropriate system to produce live, musically at least somewhat expressive playing. But in the end the results were not convincing enough, even for me, so I switched over to an advanced & elaborated commercial sample player, and I am quite happy with the auditive results it produces. Accordingly my engagement here is just a desire to support the community. But at the present state of the art and my special inclination towards wind controllers I am not perceiving an angle point that I could put my lever into to address potentially interested bystanders.

Cheers,

Petra

[bazsound]

I dunno if this has been mentioned already in here but linux already kind of is a big player in music.

Midas use linux as a base in there pro series desks in the XL8 and its also the bass for the to be released midas m32 mid range console and its in the behringer x32.

Midas have already stated in some of the demonstration videos that they use linux becuase of its reliability and development possibilities.

Also The Allen & Heath i live desk uses some form of linux as its base. Which would mean there gld aswell, probobably most of there digital desks.

[kawliga]

Linux users could have snubbed the bitwig release,
based on some daft omissions, but instead, have dug into the available scripts and code,
as well as the linux toolbox, and exposed the spinal cord to those with nerves to connect.

That's interesting - could you please elaborate? What do you mean by "exposed the spinal cord"?

[kawliga]

I dunno if this has been mentioned already in here but linux already kind of is a big player in music.

Midas use linux as a base in there pro series desks in the XL8 and its also the bass for the to be released midas m32 mid range console and its in the behringer x32.

Midas have already stated in some of the demonstration videos that they use linux becuase of its reliability and development possibilities.

Also The Allen & Heath i live desk uses some form of linux as its base. Which would mean there gld aswell, probobably most of there digital desks.

Fair point, Linux is big in embedded systems, but I don't think the same can be said about the desktop side - most DAWs, plugins and samples do not support Linux, at least officially (I suppose you may get them running in wine but they are not really intended to run on Linux). Also, on the hardware side, you still have to be careful when buying a soundcard, as far as I'm aware, as not all of them will work well under Linux.

[kawliga]

Thinking again about the problem of funding developers to work on Linux audio and came across this on the Raspberry Pi website:

today we are announcing a £1 million education fund.

This fund is in support of our core charitable mission, so we are looking to fund innovative and exciting projects that enhance understanding of and education in computing for children aged between 5 and 18. The fund does not exclusively target Computing as a subject; we are also interested in supporting projects that demonstrate and promote the use of computing technology in other subjects, particularly STEM and the creative arts.

Our aim is to support a range of projects: from those that increase participation, to those that target excellence. Given our charitable status, priority will be given to organisations that have a not-for-profit ethos. The fund will operate through match funding, so not only are we wanting to hear from people with potential projects ideas; we are also wanting to hear from industry and third-sector partners who’d be interested in co-funding some of the projects.

The emphasis is mine.

Perhaps this could be an opportunity for funding of Linux audio development?

The Linux audio community is very much in keeping with the "not-for-profit ethos" that the foundation are looking for. I'm sure they would agree that Music software is of educational value and they specifically say that they are looking for projects to do with "the creative arts".

I realise folks complain that the raspberry pi is a bit underpowered but worth bearing in mind that a new raspberry pi is due out next year, which will no doubt be much more powerful than the current one, which will be 3 years old by then.

Also, the Raspberry Pi Foundation have demonstrated that they are willing to invest in lots of optimisation to squeeze every bit of performance they can out of the pi.

Development of music software on the pi could benefit linux audio as a whole and provide the opportunity for developers to be paid to work on what they love.

Also, would help promote/advertise Linux audio as the Pi is a phenomenon - 3 million sold.

[StudioDave]

Linux users could have snubbed the bitwig release,
based on some daft omissions, but instead, have dug into the available scripts and code,
as well as the linux toolbox, and exposed the spinal cord to those with nerves to connect.

That's interesting - could you please elaborate? What do you mean by "exposed the spinal cord"?

Not to speak for Da G, but I think he means that a number of users have figured out some non-obvious solutions to some obvious problems, #1 of which was BW's apparent inability to communicate with the world outside of BW, something rather anathematic to a JACK-savvy app. As he says, we used scripts at first, but then falkTX devised the JackAss plugin for a more direct solution. VST plugins are/were another problem, but abique's vst-bridge has been working nicely for various native Windows plugins while the native Linux collection continues to expand. Having Carla as a VST and/or LV2 plugin would be fantastic, I'm looking forward to that possibility.

Best,

dp

[glowrak guy]

Anyone who can get me to edit a script, without ammo, is doing something right
Didn't even need to find the install cd when I rebooted