Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

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Basslint
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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby Basslint » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:39 pm

jonetsu wrote:There must be a perceived need. Like what are the drawbacks of using Windows/Mac as a OS for professional audio production when compared to Linux. I mean outside of the availability of professional audio applications. What could motivate studios to consider Linux as a better OS to work with, what concerns professional studios have in using Windows/Mac that they could wish they could get rid of, that even perhaps cause them annoyances. IMHO it's on that front that Linux can put a proverbial foot in the door into professional audio production and with that interest more vendors to offer products.


Well, for starters a lot of people learn online these days and it's much easier to do it on Windows and Macs. You can find lots of free resources on programs such as FL Studio and Ableton.

Then some people just want to use what pros use. It's like that in every field, from music to fishing.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby zoco » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:40 am

tavasti wrote:My most important customer has 42000 employees. They needed Linux & QNX specialist.


Server? Or desktops?
Like i said, the most common software for business is not available for linux. Thats a simple fact.

Yes linux server is very common. Server has official support. The lack of that also makes desktop less accepted.
So server is something different than desktop.

merlyn wrote:'Forced' is a bit different from 'having no choice'.

Is it? If someone say "pay or die", do you still say you have a choice then without speaking about force?

Yes you have the choice to not follow up the demands. But then you will not get the contract. That simple.

jonetsu wrote:
zoco wrote:And i think i have a point there if i see that everyone talking about music production is talking about mac and windows so that seems the common situation which forces other ones into those too.


Having a point about the obvious is not the most amazing thing. I don't think anyone in this thread has refuted the fact that most DAWs and plugins are made for Windows and Mac.

And thats were this all started, the word force that i used. I said that most will probably be forced away from linux, as the big studio's can only communicate with and will only work with windows an mac software.
So i think there must be musicians working on linux, within budgets and looking at usage statistics. There must be many recording music like we do and some lucky few will brake thru. But if they grow big they will be forced away from linux into whats used in common.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby tavasti » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:46 am

zoco wrote:
tavasti wrote:My most important customer has 42000 employees. They needed Linux & QNX specialist.


Server? Or desktops?
Like i said, the most common software for business is not available for linux. Thats a simple fact.


Work was servers and embedded, but the point was: I was working for them, and I did not have any windows. Sure it depends what you do, but what you have been claiming "you can't run business with linux", that is bullshit.
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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:45 pm

zoco wrote: And thats were this all started, the word force that i used. I said that most will probably be forced away from linux, as the big studio's can only communicate with and will only work with windows an mac software.


The 'communication' is made by means of audio files. Audio files are exported then imported into other DAWs. Studios usually do not exchange DAW proprietary sessions. They exchange audio stems and audio files. These audio files can be read by any software on any OS. If they would exchange DAW sessions they would be forcing each other using specific DAWs and that would be a no-no in the industry.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:53 pm

Basslint wrote:
jonetsu wrote:There must be a perceived need. Like what are the drawbacks of using Windows/Mac as a OS for professional audio production when compared to Linux. I mean outside of the availability of professional audio applications. What could motivate studios to consider Linux as a better OS to work with, what concerns professional studios have in using Windows/Mac that they could wish they could get rid of, that even perhaps cause them annoyances. IMHO it's on that front that Linux can put a proverbial foot in the door into professional audio production and with that interest more vendors to offer products.


Well, for starters a lot of people learn online these days and it's much easier to do it on Windows and Macs. You can find lots of free resources on programs such as FL Studio and Ableton.

Then some people just want to use what pros use. It's like that in every field, from music to fishing.


I was specifically mentioning studios. Individuals are something else. Some individuals even believe that by learning a DAW they learn how to mix as if learning a word processor would turn someone into a Shakespeare or knowing how to operate a chopsaw would turn someone into a fine woodcrafter.

This caveat said, there are quite a few tutorial resources about Bitwig and Mixbus.

And of course, any mixing/mastering tutorial of any kind can be used by anyone aspiring to actually learn how to mix. After all, this is completely DAW independent.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:59 pm

zoco wrote:Yes you have the choice to not follow up the demands. But then you will not get the contract. That simple.

Not sure if this was about music, but if it was ... An artist comes into your studio to record material. He will not make it a criteria that you use Pro Tools with Waves plugins. He/she will be in your studio because of your capacity to produce mixes. And again, the output of the work will not be a DAW session. It will be audio files. Which can be subsequently loaded into any DAW on any OS.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby merlyn » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:22 pm

zoco wrote:is it? If someone say "pay or die", do you still say you have a choice then without speaking about force?

If you move force further up the chain and say that people are forced to work then Karl Marx would agree. The Marxist narrative is that without access to a piece of land from which to support themselves ordinary people are forced to sell their labour. The way Marx puts it implies that taking away a choice is a form of force.

The Marxist narrative isn't in favour at the moment and flies in the face of the current neo-liberal narrative, which lies somewhere between a hollywood smile, a private jet and a glitzy, celebrity studded party. I suppose it could be summarised as 'if you don't want your own private island and a super yacht you're weird'.

Marx wrote an essay about 'the perfect machine' which would destroy capitalism. It costs nothing, and lasts forever.

@zoco I'm now thinking there is force in the system. The media constantly bombard us with messages that we are free and that is a comfortable illusion. It's not the reality.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:57 pm

merlyn wrote:@zoco I'm now thinking there is force in the system. The media constantly bombard us with messages that we are free and that is a comfortable illusion. It's not the reality.


If you look for exterior sings to find freedom ... then you'll be one that will end up ordering things for people no matter what. And in doing so achieve exactly the contrary of what you're looking for.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby zoco » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 pm

tavasti wrote:Sure it depends what you do, but what you have been claiming "you can't run business with linux", that is bullshit.


I said common business. I was not talking about the exeptions which always exist. And who says thats bullshit didn't work at that level off business with the market leading companies in oil, food, cars, electronics, and so on.

Talking about something you have no knowledge off is more talking bullshit.

merlyn wrote:@zoco I'm now thinking there is force in the system. The media constantly bombard us with messages that we are free and that is a comfortable illusion. It's not the reality.

Happy that someone understands what i mean.
Force might be a big word, but if you want to join the game you have no other choise. You must.

And i am not a marxist or whatever. I only always practiced economics and understand the game rules.

jonetsu wrote:
zoco wrote:Yes you have the choice to not follow up the demands. But then you will not get the contract. That simple.

Not sure if this was about music, but if it was ... An artist comes into your studio to record material. He will not make it a criteria that you use Pro Tools with Waves plugins. He/she will be in your studio because of your capacity to produce mixes. And again, the output of the work will not be a DAW session. It will be audio files. Which can be subsequently loaded into any DAW on any OS.


Big artists work with big studios which have certain demand. It is not known to me were exactly those demands are situated, but i know that linux is doubted in the music business among producers, engeneers, and many musicians. That alone brings difficulties.

Libre and openoffice are as good as ms offoce but that are not accepted either.
Gimp is as good as photoshop but that is not accepted either.

Just look at music documentaries about big artists and tutorials from professional pruducers and engeneers, based in professional studios. I have seen many and never saw linux on the screen. That says enough i think.

Not my opinion, but a practical fact.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby sysrqer » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:54 pm

zoco wrote:Gimp is as good as photoshop but that is not accepted either.

This isn't true. Perhaps for an average user but not for professionals who use the advanced features in photoshop.
As far as music, it may be true that there is an element of everyone demonstrating techniques with non-FOSS software but I honestly think it is delusional to think that ardour or qtractor or jamin or calf offer the same level of features and stability that equivalents do when running in windows.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby zoco » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:14 pm

:wink: Exactly. And how will the big guys respond to that you think? Perhaps that is the reason why you never see linux on the screens?
Although i think 85% off the graphical designs made with gimp can be good enough to compete and to be used by the graphical industries. Which advanced features do you miss in Gimp which Photoshop does have? I didn't find that much yet. Most common and most used are available.

By the way, i think good music is in the performance and not that much in the software behind it. Good music should mostly make itself and should not be something horrible to be constructed into something reasonable. Which for me makes recording and how that is done less important. So i do think ardour or qtractor or jamin or calf offer the same level of features and (perhaps even more) stability that equivalents do when running in windows. More stability when on mac i'm willing to believe.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:29 pm

zoco wrote: Big artists work with big studios which have certain demand. It is not known to me were exactly those demands are situated, but i know that linux is doubted in the music business among producers, engeneers, and many musicians. That alone brings difficulties.


It's more than obvious that artists' concerns are not about which OS the studio runs, let alone which plugins they use and which DAW they work with. An artist concern is totally different from that.

zoco wrote: Just look at music documentaries about big artists and tutorials from professional pruducers and engeneers, based in professional studios. I have seen many and never saw linux on the screen. That says enough i think.


Not sure what you're trying to prove. Nobody is saying that Linux is popular in pro studios. This is more than obvious.

This said and put aside, not sure how you would tell there's "linux on the screen". I mean, will the mixing tutorial show a penguin ? A penguin on the desktop's background ? Maybe a penguin mascot perched on the monitor or of of the speakers ?
When Bitwig or Mixbus32C are running they do not advertise "linux". And now with wine-staging and linvst you can even see some Windows plugins being used. After all these two DAWs also run on Windows and Mac.

Again, a driving consideration for Linux to become more present in rpo studios would be about the OS itself and advantages it offers over Windows that would feedback to plugin and DAW manufacturers. That Reaper is now found on Linux, after Bitwig and Mixbus32C, might be a beginning of such concern being slowly expressed. The considerations will be out of the plugin and DAW themselves and about the infrastructure. No pro studio will use open source plugins when there's ample high quality competition around.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby jonetsu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:37 pm

zoco wrote:So i do think ardour or qtractor or jamin or calf offer the same level of features and (perhaps even more) stability that equivalents do when running in windows.


Jamin on Sourceforge was last modified in 2005. Are you saying that jamin is a competition to a current SSL channel strip from Waves, IK Multimedia or UAD, or any other current variants of (British) channel strips, including Harrison's Mixbus32C ?

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby sysrqer » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:46 pm

Well I think it is one thing to talk of linux and another to talk of FOSS. I have seen video tutorials of Windows people using Helm, puredata, vcvrack. If the tools are good enough then they will be used but the truth is that a lot of them are not as good (or as easy to use) as the leading commercial products and most people who don't use linux don't know or care about open source. Reaper and bitwig have opened things up a little and I have seen people on the reaper forum interested in switching to linux. I don't mean to knock FOSS products, far from it, but I don't think they can compare in most cases (not all, it has to be said).

It depends on what kind of music you are making, if you are recording instruments or playing in a band then I would agree that performance is the key aspect, and generally you can do everything very well in linux with FOSS tools for that. But if you are Doing electronic music with lots of layering and lots of fx and synths, huge track counts and complex routing then the quality of the software and the way the user can interact with it can be more important than the performance. Lots of electronic music is made with no element of performance at all. In this situation FOSS can start to get sketchy pretty quickly and involves knowing which out of the hundreds of fx you might have cause crashes in particular circumstances. I mentioned this earlier but Unfa had ardour crash on him and caused him to lose his work on a live stream while doing something mundane like adding a midi note. I've had the same thing happen many times, and I personally know a few people on this forum who have suffered the same thing. Perhaps it is not fair to expect anything else but for as long as that is a likely possibility then FOSS will never be used widely for professional music.

The leading brands of non-FOSS music tools are far ahead of linux/FOSS offerings at the moment, I can't see how that is even questionable. Of course, it is possible to get the same result with hard work, knowledge, time, experience, and good ears (not to mention luck that your project will not crash and lose your work) but show me a FOSS tool that can find a sample that is in the same key, or same timbre as another from the thousands I have, or one that can tell me which instruments have clashing frequencies, or how my master compares to thousands of other analysed examples from the same genre, or one that analyse one piece of audio and superimpose the EQ curve on to another piece of audio. Ironically these are things that bedroom musicians would benefit from more than professionals but they are examples of the current day difference between FOSS and non-FOSS and why many people would stick with non-FOSS even if they gave FOSS a good chance.

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Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Postby CrocoDuck » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:28 pm

sysrqer wrote:It depends on what kind of music you are making, if you are recording instruments or playing in a band then I would agree that performance is the key aspect, and generally you can do everything very well in linux with FOSS tools for that. But if you are Doing electronic music with lots of layering and lots of fx and synths, huge track counts and complex routing then the quality of the software and the way the user can interact with it can be more important than the performance. Lots of electronic music is made with no element of performance at all. In this situation FOSS can start to get sketchy pretty quickly and involves knowing which out of the hundreds of fx you might have cause crashes in particular circumstances. I mentioned this earlier but Unfa had ardour crash on him and caused him to lose his work on a live stream while doing something mundane like adding a midi note. I've had the same thing happen many times, and I personally know a few people on this forum who have suffered the same thing. Perhaps it is not fair to expect anything else but for as long as that is a likely possibility then FOSS will never be used widely for professional music.


I did have my fair share of crashes with Sonar (ugh... I am old) and DP far more recently. And Adobe Audition many years ago. One friend of mine, a pretty good producer and DJ, once said something like "Dang, computers always do what they want, do they?". He used macs.

I really have no data to claim that crashes and bugs are as common in commercial audio software as they are in open source audio software. In other realms this kind of stats exist. I remember my teachers at Uni showing some evidence that the Linux kernel is the software of its kind with the least amount of bugs, but I really do not remember how that was even measured and I will just leave it there, I am not sure I can dig that out from my notes. One of the ideas behind open source is that bugs should be quickly fixed if the source is open. And if the contributors are many. On open source audio software the contributors are few, so maybe that doesn't work out. But then Renoise, BitWig and Moddart all have very small teams... how do they handle it?

Well, anyway, no matter whether open source audio software is more or less stable than its commercial counterparts (which I really do not know whether it is true or not), I think it is safe to say that many, if not most, perceive it that way. And I can easily imagine that someone that was using GarageBand until yesterday would trash Ardour completely for a bug like the one you mentioned, even though maybe the actual stability is not too different from that of GarageBand, just due to the bias that comes from seeing something unfamiliar, which they are putting to test, going down that spectacularly.

sysrqer wrote:The leading brands of non-FOSS music tools are far ahead of linux/FOSS offerings at the moment, I can't see how that is even questionable. Of course, it is possible to get the same result with hard work, knowledge, time, experience, and good ears (not to mention luck that your project will not crash and lose your work) but show me a FOSS tool that can find a sample that is in the same key, or same timbre as another from the thousands I have, or one that can tell me which instruments have clashing frequencies, or how my master compares to thousands of other analysed examples from the same genre, or one that analyse one piece of audio and superimpose the EQ curve on to another piece of audio. Ironically these are things that bedroom musicians would benefit from more than professionals but they are examples of the current day difference between FOSS and non-FOSS and why many people would stick with non-FOSS even if they gave FOSS a good chance.


That's juicy stuff that it would be awesome to have. Here the discussion ties back in to what someone said above. It isn't really about how to do it, or technical knowledge. It is about the time to make it happen. If all open source audio developers worked on their projets full time it would be a different story. We can see what teams as small as that of Moddart can achieve with full time work.
Last edited by CrocoDuck on Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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