What makes Jazz, jazz

Ask general music theory or songwriting questions, get feedback!

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

btw, if you want to hear jazz in a Bossa Nova, versus Swing, style then listen to the song "Green dolphin street". The verse (first 32 measures) are Bossa Nova. Then the chorus (next 32 measures) abruptly switches to swing.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

It's fairly obvious you don't play jazz, jeff. It's not "agreed rules and keys". It's songs or tunes. We play a tune, like Take Five, Green Dolphin Street, or Autumn Leaves then improvise on that tune. To me, who plays jazz, jazz is a working method. There is a common repertoire of standards and really that defines what jazz is.

Jazz is as wide a term as rock, which ranges from Neil Young to King Crimson. Jazz also includes big band music, where it's a lot about the arrangements. Of course there are solos in big band, but it's much more a written form, with the band having their music stands in front of them. Still jazz though, no?
j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

merlyn wrote: you don't play jazz
You'd think that, by now, you had learned from your past mistakes and not be prone to assume things about me.

I don't primarily play jazz, but I have played jazz before with various musicians. I've never played Take 5, but I have played Green Dolphin Street and Autumn Leaves (which I absolutely hate. What a monotonous dreary song) plenty of times.

Secondly, one doesn't need to be a jazz player to know the history and theory behind the music. The detailed examples I've mentioned in my previous posts should have tipped you off that I know that history and theory.

In fact, I'm shocked by the number of jazz musicians I've met that don't actually know the history nor theory behind what they're doing. An alarming number of them can't read music manuscripts at all, much less sight-read them.

Can you sight-read a music manuscript, btw?
merlyn wrote: It's not "agreed rules and keys".
There you go again, arguing with your own straw man. That's not my definition of jazz. I summed up my definition in 2 posts, and even bold-faced it in the second post, and you still can't even cut and paste it properly.
It's songs or tunes.
No, it isn't.

It's how you play a song. If you're playing it improvised, with an emphasis on chord substitution (especially with 11ths, 13ths, and flat/sharp 5ths and 9ths) and solos that employ tonal modes, then what you're doing can likely be described as jazz. Those are the salient features that jazz emphasizes, whereas most other styles of music don't.
There is a common repertoire of standards and really that defines what jazz is.
That's completely incorrect. If jazz was based upon an already existing repetoire of songs, then logically it would not be possible to:

1) Write a new jazz song.
2) Take a song written in a different style, and play a jazz version of it.

And the above 2 things are definitely possible.
big band music... is much more a written form. Still jazz though, no?
No, not necessarily. Like I said, it's all in what the musicians are playing.

If the big band is playing a stock arrangement of "The theme from Ice Castles", then no it's not jazz (ie, Just because the instrumentation could easily be utilized to play jazz, doesn't mean that a Big Band automatically implies jazz. You just don't seem to realize that jazz is not instrumentation, nor songs. It's all about improvising with an emphasis upon... yadda yadda... how many times do I need to repeat this?)

If the Big Band was playing "In the Mood", I wouldn't call that jazz either (unless they were adding a lot of jazz chord substitutions, and doing some fancy tonal "excursions" in the solos). I'd call it 1940's popular music with a blues influence.

Now if the Big Band was playing a Woody Herman tune, I'd very likely describe it as jazz. (Note to readers, if you want to hear Big Band jazz at its peak, check out Woody Herman, a clarinet player and jazz big band leader in the 1940s. His band was superb).

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

The true depths of your cluelessness are revealed in this statement:
j_e_f_f_g wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:02 am The verse (first 32 measures) are Bossa Nova. Then the chorus (next 32 measures) abruptly switches to swing.
Leaving aside the fact that you can't count for a moment, 'verse' and 'chorus' had a different meaning before the three minute pop song. With three minute pop songs verse often means 'forgettable filler' and chorus means 'memorable hook'. With Green Dolphin Street the 32 bar form is all chorus. That's the chorus.

Some jazz standards, like this one, are from films :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdszk9D4PQ

If there's a verse to Green Dolphin Street then it's the music before the melody we recognise comes in. The verse in these old songs is often rubato and sets up the song in the film. Instead of the actors suddenly bursting into song, there is a rubato intro where they move from speaking to singing, kind of like, but also totally unlike, recitative in opera. Just for your own edification as a musician, you understand, just in case you're asked to play a verse the next time you play with jazz musicians.

The more egregious error is the completely wonky form you're proposing for Green Dolphin Street. Maybe you know the 12" remix version. Green Dolphin Street has a 32 bar form. A (bossa) B (swing) A (bossa) C (swing), with each section being 8 bars. This may explain the funny looks you got the last time you played it.
Last edited by merlyn on Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

I see that you're going to ignore the merits of my rebuttal to your inaccurate statements (for obvious reasons). Instead, you're going to try to distract everyone's attention away from the fact that I've completely eviscerated your faulty arguments, by abruptly changing the subject.

So be it. But if you're going to start off your reply with an air of "intellectual superiority", then you should probably learn to correctly spell "clueless".
merlyn wrote: 'verse' and 'chorus' had a different meaning before the three minute pop song.
Wow. You actually said something that is factually correct.

Back in the very early days of popular music, a verse was an introductory musical section (of a song) that proceeded (and was usually played once) before the main body of the song. All songs had a chorus. But not all songs had a verse. A song would likely have a verse if the song needed to transition from spoken word, for example in a movie or stage scene, or for some reason needed to "setup" the main body. Hence, the verse. Of course, this being the days of 78 rpm vinyl records, verses were usually not recorded, which is why people recognize only the choruses of "classic standards", and may not have heard the verses.

At the time "Green Dolphin Street" was written, it would not have been considered to have a verse and chorus. There is no introductory musical theme to it, so it would not have had a verse.

But as is common in language, certain words take on different meanings over the course of time. Today, a verse and chorus refer to unique musical passages, not song introductory/body sections. Although today, film/stage composers may still include an introductory section (although not often, as it's considered old-fashioned and cliche), they would refer to it as an introduction rather than a verse.

Only old-fashion musicians playing century-old songs almost nobody remembers, nor wants to hear, still use the old definitions.

Which is probably why none of you could understand the point merlin was trying to make until now.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by GMaq »

I think maybe you two were married in a former life... :lol:

Let's make a deal, merlyn learns to spell 'clueless' and Jeff learns to spell 'merlyn'...
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 pm ... Although today, film/stage composers may still include an introductory section (although not often, as it's considered old-fashioned and cliche), they would refer to it as an introduction rather than a verse.
Like I said, it's obvious you don't play jazz (much). The new real books (if you know what they are) still call it a verse if a tune has a verse. Verse then, verse now would seem to be the thinking.
User avatar
bhilmers
Established Member
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:44 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by bhilmers »

I think j_e_f_f_g has the closest definition of Jazz in this thread. It's hard to talk about the properties of a music genre without historical context. From what I remember in my music history classes (and without looking anything up), Jazz followed the following trajectory:

Musicians raised on the blues looked to innovate by improvising on popular themes. This largely took the format of establishing a musical theme at the beginning of a song, then playing variations, and finally closing with the theme again (a musical journey that returns you home).

This "Jazz" grew in popularity with young people much to the dismay of the older generation. It was seen as rebellious, unstructured noise that kids would gyrate to (same pattern with rock and then rap decades later, gee I wonder why?). Eventually, Jazz would be "sanitized" for White America and become pop music in the 30s and 40s, and by doing so lost the improvisational aspects and the "cool" factor.

A lot of Jazz musicians resented this sanitation and aimed for a more radical return to the roots of Jazz, heavy with innovation, experimentation, and improvisation. This was the birth of Bebop in the 50s and it's what a lot of people associate with the genre of Jazz: complex, erratic, improvisational music. It's also considered the least listenable of all the iterations of Jazz. But really, Jazz has less to do with time signatures, tempo, swing, chord changes, and even song structure, and more to do with intent. And I think this postmodern definition is why Jazz is so persistent in music today. You can "hear" the Jazz in lots of genres.
j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

Here's an actual conversation I had on a gig with the guitarist of this jazz quartet I was playing with. I'll call the guitarist "C".

C: Let's play Stardust.
Me: The old Hoagy Carmichael number?
C: Yeah.
Me: That's in Bb right? But it starts on an Eb6?
C: Yeah. But I want to start with the verse.
Me: Nobody remembers that. Let's start with the part people will recognize.
C: The verse is beautiful! It's even better than the chorus.
Me: It may be. But considering that I've played the chorus many times, I frankly don't even remember the verse. So, here's your Eb lead-in.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:36 am C: Let's play Stardust.
Me: The old Hoagy Carmichael number?
C: Yeah.
Me: That's in Bb right? But it starts on an Eb6?
C: Yeah. But I want to start with the verse.
Me: Nobody remembers that. Let's start with the part people will recognize.
C: The verse is beautiful! It's even better than the chorus.
Me: It may be. But considering that I've played the chorus many times, I frankly don't even remember the verse. So, here's your Eb lead-in.
Makes sense. Then you got the sack from that gig and started playing with robots.
j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

merlyn wrote: Then you got the sack from that gig
I turned in the jazz sack for a sack containing cash, by playing music that audiences actually want to hear. (That said, for my own personal projects, the stuff I write/play is very non-commercial. But not jazz.)

Almost nobody wants to hear jazz today, especially the kind your band plays (warmed over 30s/40s pop standards). It has very little appeal, and since I personally find jazz to be boring (it's like listening to Czerny scale exercises), I don't play it on gigs any more. It's like Frank Zappa said "Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny.". And audiences don't like the smell of it.

Now the blues is still rather popular. People seem to relate to the simplistic nature of the song structure, and the simplicity of blues scales/tonality. Do a good blues rendition and people will react well to it. Especially electric blues is received favorably.

But jazz is one of the least popular forms of music today. I just don't see any point to playing jazz publically. You don't get paid well. The audience doesn't want to hear it. And nobody knows what the point of it is, apparently even jazz musicians as evidenced by your own confusion over what it is, and what it entails. It should just be allowed to die, like the latin language. Send it off to the tarpits. Almost nobody will even notice its disappearance.

Caveat: I do enjoy listening to The Post-Modern Orchestra doing "jazz versions" of modern pop songs. But mostly because I admire the clever mimicry, rather than the music itself. Now that's fun. But playing straight-forward jazz?... there's no reason.

Caveat 2: Return to Forever's "Romantic Warrior" is one of my fav recordings. But that goes pretty well beyond jazz, even though that's the label people tend to slap on it.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

User avatar
sunrat
Established Member
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:08 pm
Has thanked: 151 times
Been thanked: 242 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by sunrat »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:46 amCaveat 2: Return to Forever's "Romantic Warrior" is one of my fav recordings. But that goes pretty well beyond jazz, even though that's the label people tend to slap on it.
There's the rub. Sticking labels on it is an individual thing. As I said above, genres are arbitrary.
I'm not really up on what passes for jazz currently, but I like a lot of older stuff like most of Miles Davis including 50s classics, but even "A Tribute To Jack Johnson" which one could label jazz rock. I like some Weather Report like "Sweetnighter" as well.
I also like Animal Collective (slightly jazz?) and Seether (quite unjazz), so genres are no indication of tastes in music either.
User avatar
Michael Willis
Established Member
Posts: 1451
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains, North America
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 164 times
Contact:

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Michael Willis »

Michael Willis wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:26 pm "If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know." - Louis Armstrong
I now have a much better understanding of that quote. If you ask what jazz is, you'll get a bunch of conflicting responses from people with different definitions, and you still won't know. This whole thread has been an excellent treatise on the subject.
j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

Michael Willis wrote: If you ask what jazz is, you'll get a bunch of conflicting responses from people with different definitions
This is true... about virtually any type of music. That's because music is a subjective artform, and people often apply their own subjective, personal preferences to any definitions.
and you still won't know.
Here's where I disagree with you. Whenever you get conflicting statements about anything, you should ask each person to justify his views with examples that prove his point, and logical deduction that does the same. And note who is able to rebutt the other person's point, versus who does what you saw merlin do (ie, ignore the rebuttal, and change the subject).

If you know how to "analyze information" (ie, you have the ability to do "critical thinking"), then you can analyze the supporting examples/logic for veracity. And therefore, you can determine which conflicting statements are true, versus which aren't.

The goal of each person should be to develop their critical thinking skills enough to be able to do this. When you do, you're always able to glean the truth regardless of how much misinformation is being directed at you.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

sunrat wrote: genres are arbitrary.
Well yes. But then so are so many things, for example, it's kind of arbitrary that humans count in base 10. Of course, there are reasons why...ie ten fingers. But the choice of base 10 is arbitrary to mathematical operations themselves. We could have come up with all the known mathematical truths just as easily if we had instead chosen base 16.

A genre is as accurate as the criteria for defining that genre. There are things about "jazz" that distinguish it from most other genres. Those things include improvisation, chord sub with 9th, 11th, and 13th and use of flat/sharp 5th and 9th, use of tonal modes for creating "melodies" (ie, solos). Hear a Eb9 with a flat 5th? If you've heard a bit of jazz, your mind is automatically going to think "Oh, that sounds like jazz". Is this because such a chord has never been used in any other genre? No. But such chords are so common in jazz, versus other genres, that it becomes a hallmark of the genre, and therefore part of its definition.

Whereas you can always find "exceptions to the rule". the general definition I came up with best defines what I think most people regard as jazz. Merlin's "definition" had criteria that was either too limited in its scope, or was just as common to other genres (and therefore not a good identifying trait). Part of the reason for this flaw is that he used one particular jazz tune to frame his definition.

I won't repeat my rebuttal of his definition, since it can be read in the preceding posts. But I welcome folks to analyze the examples, logic, and perspective I use, to determine for themselves whether my definition is more accurate.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

Post Reply