What makes Jazz, jazz

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merlyn
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

@Gps It wasn't my intention to define jazz. I think it's more useful to answer the question "what makes Take Five jazz?" than "what makes jazz jazz?".

Frank Zappa said "Talking about music is like fishing about architecture." Jeff is free to cast flies to catch a cathedral.

I don't think that anyone would dispute that the album Kind Of Blue by Miles Davis is jazz. If you want to find out about jazz, start with the music, Kind Of Blue on Youtube, not one hundred years of music boiled down into one sentence.

On Green Dolphin Street is track six on that album, and it's swing throughout. This album is from before bossa nova and other latin beats had become a jazz staple.
Last edited by merlyn on Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

GMaq wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:32 pm merlyn learns to spell 'clueless'
After I wrote and posted my above response, he went back in to edit his post and changed "clulessness" to "cluelessness". I've noticed a pattern of disingenuous and unprincipled behavior in his discourse. I don't think even he regards what he writes as honest. He doesn't argue with examples, logic, facts, or address specific points. He grabs the nearest straw man he can find, and dishonestly pummels that. And he knows that's what he doing.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Michael Willis »

@Gps if you want to try making a jazz piece, regardless of how you define it, I'm willing to contribute on clarinet and/or saxophone.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

Here's a perfect example above. The original poster asked "what makes jazz jazz'. He didn't ask "what makes the song Take 5 jazz?".

In Merlin's (I like that spelling because it implies he's conjuring things out of thin air, so I'm gonna continue using it) initial response to the OP, it's clear that Merlin is attempting to define jazz since he makes numerous general statements about jazz itself. For example:
Not many jazz songs are in 5/4, but a lot have a swing rhythm.

In jazz the hi-hat pedal and ride cymbal keep the rhythm going, and the bass and snare play around.

The piano part uses syncopation, which is a big part of a jazz sound.

Jazz does use notes from outside the scale

Most jazz songs use a 32 bar AABA form.
Furthermore, if his initial intent was to deliberately not answer the OP's question, but instead restrict his discussion to Take 5, why did he not state that in his initial response? I certainly would have, because to do otherwise is misleading. (answer: Because he's not being honest about his intent).

I don't think there is anything too dishonest for him to use as a rationale/excuse to reframe a discussion (usually in order to setup his own strawman). I find his posts to lack integrity, and I think his rationalization is deliberate.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

merlyn wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:30 pm @Gps It wasn't my intention to define jazz. I think it's more useful to answer the question "what makes Take Five jazz?" than "what makes jazz jazz?".

Frank Zappa said "Talking about music is like fishing about architecture." Jeff is free to cast flies to catch a cathedral.

I don't think that anyone would dispute that the album Kind Of Blue by Miles Davis is jazz. If you want to find out about jazz, start with the music, Kind Of Blue on Youtube, not one hundred years of music boiled down into one sentence.

On Green Dolphin Street is track six on that album, and it's swing throughout. This album is from before bossa nova and other latin beats had become a jazz staple.
Your answers and Jeff 's answers are helping me big time.

I am for some time on the hunt on why my tracks sound so general.
It proofs I understand some music theory, but I still have a lot to learn.

I love disco (the funk inspired one) but I fail horrible when trying to be funky. :lol:

Did someone say swing ? And using notes out of the scale ?

When I started to make music, people asked if I was tone deaf.
I needed to use the theory to be in tune.
These days my ears are trained enough, I can hear if I am doing it right, but now I need to learn what rules I can forget about.

Diving into jazz seems perfect for that. :)
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by tseaver »

First, I haven't read to the end of the thread, but as a long-time player in a jazz ensemble, I did want to reply to one part @j_e_f_f_g's characterization here:
Typically a jazz song has simple, repetitive chord progressions (because complex progressions would be too difficult to remember without benefit of composed sheet music to guide you).
This isn't true for anything like the whole range of jazz: many of the "jazz standards" have forms which are *much* more complicated than anything one can find in any modern "pop" music forms: e.g., 32-bar "choruses," made up of four 8-bar forms, where the third one is likely to vary wildly from the other three, with minor differences (usually in the endings) in the three "similar" forms. This leaves completely aside the "verses" for those 32-bar-chorus tunes, which are frequently more harmonically dense than anything the non-jazz listener will have ever heard, period. For examples, see the "Great American Songbook" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Songbook.

Note that a lot of the rest of @j_e_f_f_g's characterization rings really true:
  • Heavy focus on improvisation, particularly during solos
  • Use of music theory to guide how such improvisation is done
In a prototypical jazz tune, the "head" (main melody, as would likely be sung by a vocalist), is typically played once or twice, followed by solos by individual instruments over one or more repetitions of the "head", followed by (perhaps) a "shout chorus" (the whole band playing an "arranged solo" over the head), followed by a recapitulation of the the head (the "out-chorus").

FWIW, there are a number of "jazz standard" tunes in which the "solo part" is effectively played over loops of a "simple" chord progression (2 - 4 bars): these tunes are often referred to as "jam tunes," because they don't require players who "sit in" to know the more complicated forms.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

tseaver wrote: jazz standards... are *much* more complicated than... modern "pop" music forms
Given how much rap has "dumbed down" pop music, just about every other genre is now more complicated. No argument there from me.

But note the context of my statement. I was talking about the historical origin of jazz; how it came to be regarded as a new genre. (What jazz did so differently from other music at time, such that it was no longer viewed, nor described, the same.) There was no pop music as we know it today. There was just... well... what we now call western classical. But back then it was just music. Different schools. Different categories (choral, concerto, sonata, etc). But all the same "genre" . And it had been going on for a long time before jazz came along, and had gotten very complex. In fact, classical musicians had already discovered most everything the jazz musicians would use, albeit in a different way.

For example, Liszt would frequently improvise. but as a soloist to show off pianist skills. He never used improvisation within a group in lieu of a written score.

Debussey had those 11ths and 13ths, but used sparingly, usually to emphasize an inharmonic melody line. He didn't substitute every maj/min transitional chord with one.

Classical musicians identified all those scales and tonal modes. (Well ok, not the blues and pentatonic scales. Those would have been considered too "philistine" if someone had proposed them back then.)

But in order to make improvisation work without descending into chaos, jazz musicians had to operate starting from a less complex perspective. They couldn't say "Let's play a jazz version of the Rites Of Spring, with all the complexity of the original." Classical musicians can do that because they only need follow the score, and it all works out. Jazz musicians have no score. So they have to say something like "Let's play a jazz version of this one section of Rites Of Spring which we as a group can improvise around without it turning into a disaster".

That's what I was referencing with my statement.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

On the danger of going of topic.

One of my statements about modern society. I know what went wrong.

I grew up with The Sex Pistols and Public Enemy.
Today kids have justin bieber. :P

I do agree pop music seems to have dumped down a lot, but I am not sure rap is to blame for this.

Rap and the original House never were complicated as far as I know.

Both heavily relying on samples. The original House music started with disco mixes, with a drumcomputer to spice up the drums.

Although I will fully admit to like some disco, there should be a law against stuff like, I am a barbie girl.

Maybe with sampling is were things took a wrong turn ?

Although I like some hip hop and house, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple are a different (much higher) music level to me.
Pink Floyd in some tracks even having different time signatures.
John Lord playing child in time, different, about every time he played it.

How many EDM producers these day, can do it life?
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Michael Willis »

Gps wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:39 pm
Although I like some hip hop and house, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple are a different (much higher) music level to me.
Modern songwriting advice: Vocals need to happen within 4 seconds or people will get bored and listen to something else.

Pink Floyd's album Wish You Were Here: 8 minutes and 42 seconds of instrumental intro before the first vocal line.

P.S. I would love love love to work on a fusion of jazz/prog rock with somebody.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Michael Willis wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:52 pm
Gps wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:39 pm
Although I like some hip hop and house, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple are a different (much higher) music level to me.
Modern songwriting advice: Vocals need to happen within 4 seconds or people will get bored and listen to something else.

Pink Floyd's album Wish You Were Here: 8 minutes and 42 seconds of instrumental intro before the first vocal line.

P.S. I would love love love to work on a fusion of jazz/prog rock with somebody.
Lets try, worst case I fail, but that has never stopped me before. :)

One problem though, the only drum rhythm I understand is 4 to the flour. Not suited for anything fusion jazz, rock wise.
But that can be a good thing though, me diving into something else.

I already made a House track of which I am quite happy. Got positive reactions from people who like (old school) House.

It might be time for me to do the next step on the music ladder. :)
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

You Tube suggested an acid jazz playlist, so I am listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbMm87H7LAw

Some of those tracks, I would call disco with some improvisations.

Example:

18m55sec

I instantly recognize this, the original is: He's the greatest dancer - Sister Sledge.

I like the original allot more. :lol:

Judging from this play list, acid jazz seems a more simple version of jazz, with more repetitions.
But you always need to be careful with drawing conclusions, from a playlist like this.

Edit: :shock:

Whotta Lota Love - Apollinare Rossi, Les Crossaders
How to murder one of my favorite rock tracks. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td5CCsPrbB0

For those here, that don't know the original:

Led Zeppelin - Whole Lotta Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmmM_qwG4k
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Loki Harfagr
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Loki Harfagr »

well, that stuff ain't jazz nor music, that's plain simple mall elevator zak :D
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by bhilmers »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:56 am
tseaver wrote: jazz standards... are *much* more complicated than... modern "pop" music forms
I was talking about the historical origin of jazz; how it came to be regarded as a new genre. (What jazz did so differently from other music at time, such that it was no longer viewed, nor described, the same.)
This is exactly how I understand it. Historically, the definition of Jazz changed from the 20's through the 60's (when I guess it could be labeled as dead by the 70s). Jazz was originally a branch of the blues, and we all know blues progressions are extremely simple. By the time you get to Giant Steps everything thing that came before went out the window except for the improvisation and progressive elements. Again, I feel it's the complex Bebop era most people imagine of when they think of Jazz, but that's not where it started.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

bhilmers wrote: the definition of Jazz changed from the 20's through the 60's
Well, aspects of jazz changed during that time.

The general definition I gave tries to summarize the most common and important aspects of jazz. But there's always an edge case that doesn't fit the definition very closely. For example, when we finally get around to "free-form jazz", that really becomes a major deviation from traditional jazz.

Here's what I suspect was the conversation between Ornette Coleman and a member of his band, (ON = Ornette Coleman, and B = band member). WARNING: The conversation may not be a 100% historically-accurate transcription.

ON: You know how, before we begin a song, we first establish a bunch of "musical guidelines/limitations" that we all must adhere to when we improvise the song? And we do this so that it doesn't end up sounding like an atonal, disorganized mess?

B: Yep, that's what we jazz musicians do.

ON: We're not going to do that anymore. We're either not going to set any limits, or maybe we'll set only 1 limit. For example, maybe I'll say that we must start in the key of G. But everything else can be improvised. You can play in any time signature you want, any tempo you want, and you can even change key (as long as you follow the one, initial limit). I call this "free-form jazz". That's what we're going to perform for tonight's audience.

B: Ok. But I think we should tell some of the audience members before we start, so they can avoid the crowd at the exit when we start playing.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:27 pm well, that stuff ain't jazz nor music, that's plain simple mall elevator zak :D
Lets say if that pay list is jazz, I just lost all interest in jazz. :P

Looking at you tube is not helping at all.

Found a playlist including Glenn Miller - In The Mood.

Then something called: The Best of Funky Jazz Groove Music

And here comes James Brown.

Unless Funk = Jazz, I smell click-bait.

If I was an expert I would not be asking here, but since when did James Brown play jazz, I am pretty sure that is called funk.

THE LAST MINISTER / TRIBUTE TO J.B. FAMILY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK1FqX-yRNQ

I do like that track, but would not call it jazz. Most James Brown tracks btw, I know because of samples in Hip Hop. :lol:

I better focus on the songs suggested in this topic.
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