What makes Jazz, jazz

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Michael Willis
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Michael Willis »

Gps wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:00 am Found a playlist including Glenn Miller - In The Mood.

...

I better focus on the songs suggested in this topic.
If you want more suggestions:

Tuxedo Junction - This is another Glenn Miller piece, in my opinion the most dapper big band jazz arrangement I've ever heard. You can watch some of the players taking turns doing solos. Also pay attention to the creative use of mutes in the trombone section to create a signature background sound, very clever.

Brooklyn - A more modern example. The Youngblood Brass Band claims to be "Riot Jazz", whatever that means. This one kind of follows the form of playing a "head", then having instrumentalists take turns playing solos (including the percussionist!), but then it wanders into some different territory with different rhythm and harmony, along with some... uhh... creative sound effects, then finally returning to the head.

Killer Joe - If you'll let me blow my own horn, this is a recording I made with some friends during a lunch time jam session.

Edit: One more, just for fun

No Strings Attached - I don't know if this even qualifies as jazz, since it follows the typical pop form of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, etc. without the improv solos. It's a genre called electroswing that definitely has a lot of jazz influence in the timbre, rhythm, and harmonies. I have to admit that a lot of the fun here is that Loredana's voice is so sultry and sassy.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

bhilmers wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:25 pm ... By the time you get to Giant Steps everything thing that came before went out the window except for the improvisation and progressive elements.
Giant Steps was important, but I don't think it blew jazz to pieces, as you're suggesting. Giant Steps came out in 1960, the same year as The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of Wes Montgomery, and here is Wes apparently oblivious to Coltrane's challenging chord progression on Four On Six. Jazz was still alive in the hands of George Benson on 1974's Bad Benson, before Benson started singing, and made some money. :D
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by davephillips »

re: the OP's question,

IIRC it was Bubber Miley who said:
If it ain't got swing, it ain't worth playin', if it ain't got gutbucket, it ain't worth listening to.
Fats Waller's famous remark gets to the point:
If you don't know what it is, don't mess with it.
And of course, there's Zappa's humorous assessment of the then-current condition of the topic:
Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny.
If you're in a reading mode check out Gunther Schuller's Early Jazz and the book Hear Me Talkin' To Ya, by Nat Hentoff and Nat Shapiro.

I'm a traditionalist. For me, jazz is Morton, Ellington, Henderson, Armstrong, Parker, Basie, Mingus, Coltrane, Dolphy, Davis... you get the picture. Oh, and add Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra to the list.

Best regards,

dp
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by raboof »

Gps wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:00 am Then something called: The Best of Funky Jazz Groove Music

And here comes James Brown.

Unless Funk = Jazz, I smell click-bait.
Well, the problem is it's genres, and lines are blurry. I can definitely see a sliding scale from 'jazz' to 'funky jazz' to 'funk' - Maceo Parker (sax player in James Brown's band), famously calls his style "2% jazz, 98% funky stuff". So I'm not surprised to see James Brown in something called "funky jazz groove music", even though indeed it's a bit clickbait-y.

To me, a core ingredient of jazz is exploring, pushing the boundaries - which of course makes it even harder to define. One of the most important Dutch Jazz radio shows I listened to in my youth was "Is dit nog wel jazz?" by Vera Vingerhoeds - translated "Is this still jazz?" :D .

I don't think jazz is dead since the 70's - for example The Comet Is Coming (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsEgNvYiIE) is 'jazz' to me and is pretty unlike the jazz from the 70's. OK, I guess you can argue 'it is not jazz', but then it becomes a 'no true Scotsman' discussion...
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Michael Willis wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:37 am
Gps wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:00 am Found a playlist including Glenn Miller - In The Mood.

...

I better focus on the songs suggested in this topic.
If you want more suggestions:

Tuxedo Junction - This is another Glenn Miller piece, in my opinion the most dapper big band jazz arrangement I've ever heard. You can watch some of the players taking turns doing solos. Also pay attention to the creative use of mutes in the trombone section to create a signature background sound, very clever.

Brooklyn - A more modern example. The Youngblood Brass Band claims to be "Riot Jazz", whatever that means. This one kind of follows the form of playing a "head", then having instrumentalists take turns playing solos (including the percussionist!), but then it wanders into some different territory with different rhythm and harmony, along with some... uhh... creative sound effects, then finally returning to the head.

Killer Joe - If you'll let me blow my own horn, this is a recording I made with some friends during a lunch time jam session.

Edit: One more, just for fun

No Strings Attached - I don't know if this even qualifies as jazz, since it follows the typical pop form of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, etc. without the improv solos. It's a genre called electroswing that definitely has a lot of jazz influence in the timbre, rhythm, and harmonies. I have to admit that a lot of the fun here is that Loredana's voice is so sultry and sassy.
Interesting, although I am tempted to call that last one Ska. :P
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

raboof wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:10 pm
Gps wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:00 am Then something called: The Best of Funky Jazz Groove Music

And here comes James Brown.

Unless Funk = Jazz, I smell click-bait.
Well, the problem is it's genres, and lines are blurry. I can definitely see a sliding scale from 'jazz' to 'funky jazz' to 'funk' - Maceo Parker (sax player in James Brown's band), famously calls his style "2% jazz, 98% funky stuff". So I'm not surprised to see James Brown in something called "funky jazz groove music", even though indeed it's a bit clickbait-y.

To me, a core ingredient of jazz is exploring, pushing the boundaries - which of course makes it even harder to define. One of the most important Dutch Jazz radio shows I listened to in my youth was "Is dit nog wel jazz?" by Vera Vingerhoeds - translated "Is this still jazz?" :D .

I don't think jazz is dead since the 70's - for example The Comet Is Coming (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsEgNvYiIE) is 'jazz' to me and is pretty unlike the jazz from the 70's. OK, I guess you can argue 'it is not jazz', but then it becomes a 'no true Scotsman' discussion...
Thank you, and I am starting to realize, my question is allot harder to answer then I thought.

Improvisations and less common (expected) chords seems to be key though.

Off topic, I ones got a Scotsman angry, by teasing him with not pronouncing Loch Ness right.
Its not lockness how most englsih pronounce it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGi1M-cXU6M

No dutch person has a problem with pronouncing it like the Scots. And this is not a coincidence.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

If you want something terse then I would suggest :

Jazz is the marriage of African rhythm and European harmony.

Realise that "jazz is ... <fill in the blank>" is also possible, like jazz is ... fun, jazz is ... good (despite what tavasti says :D)

In terse land it's also worth considering "What makes jazz (noun) jazz (verb)?", and that is improvisation. There's lots of improvised music that isn't jazz, though.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

merlyn wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:35 am
bhilmers wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:25 pm ... By the time you get to Giant Steps everything thing that came before went out the window except for the improvisation and progressive elements.
Giant Steps was important, but I don't think it blew jazz to pieces, as you're suggesting. Giant Steps came out in 1960, the same year as The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of Wes Montgomery, and here is Wes apparently oblivious to Coltrane's challenging chord progression on Four On Six. Jazz was still alive in the hands of George Benson on 1974's Bad Benson, before Benson started singing, and made some money. :D
Giant steps, now that sounds like what I think of when I mention Jazz.
That feeling of wtf is he doing ? :lol:

When I saw george benson, I wondered, Don't I know that name ?
And yes I do:
George Benson - Give me the Night.

And were back to funk disco :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIF7wKJb2iU

I really like his take 5 version. pop goes the weasel ? :wink:

Hip hop / rap warning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8z_nR0cOOU

Ya stole somebody's record then ya looped it, ya looped it
Ya boosted the record then ya looped it, ya looped it
Aiyyo, I came from Cali, and they hooped it, they hooped it
But now you're getting sued kinda stupid
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

Gps wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:55 pm Giant steps, now that sounds like what I think of when I mention Jazz.
That feeling of wtf is he doing ? :lol:
He's jazzing. :D When Frank Zappa was asked what records he listened to as a teenager, he replied that he liked Edgard Varese and Johnny Guitar Watson. Zappa wasn't so keen on Charlie Parker records. "It sounded like noodles to me," he said. "Now I can tell good noodles from bad noodles, but back then it was all just noodles to me."

Giant Steps is fast -- 240bpm, and that adds to the wall of notes (or 'sheets of sound', as Coltrane was described) vibe. When the tune starts there is a simple melody, and you can probably follow that. It's a sixteen bar form, and the form keeps going through the whole tune.

Image

If you can follow the form through the solos, then it may sound less like noodles, and each time around the form you can notice what the soloist does with the tune. Coltrane starts his solo on the last bar of the head, over the | C#m7 / F#7 / | chords. Sticking to the form is how the musicians hand over solos.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by bhilmers »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:05 pm
bhilmers wrote: the definition of Jazz changed from the 20's through the 60's
Well, aspects of jazz changed during that time. The general definition I gave tries to summarize the most common and important aspects of jazz. But there's always an edge case that doesn't fit the definition very closely.
You're right, I misspoke there.
merlyn wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:35 amGiant Steps was important, but I don't think it blew jazz to pieces, as you're suggesting.
I'm not suggesting that Giant Steps did anything to Jazz, rather it is a popular example of Jazz in that era versus Jazz in the early years. My point isn't that Coltrane made the change happen, but rather he was riding the wave of change.
raboof wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:10 pmTo me, a core ingredient of jazz is exploring, pushing the boundaries - which of course makes it even harder to define.
This is what I argue as well. It's like a soft definition of Jazz versus a hard definition that focuses on the tangible properties.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

bhilmers wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:19 pm
merlyn wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:35 amGiant Steps was important, but I don't think it blew jazz to pieces, as you're suggesting.
I'm not suggesting that Giant Steps did anything to Jazz, rather it is a popular example of Jazz in that era versus Jazz in the early years. My point isn't that Coltrane made the change happen, but rather he was riding the wave of change.
Do you not think the sixties produced some of the most accessible jazz? The sixties is when bossa nova, as discussed above, came into jazz. The Girl From Ipanema, Song For My Father and Here's That Rainy Day have a bossa (Brazilian) beat. The rest of these tracks have that sixties jazz feel.

1962 Herbie Hancock -- Watermelon Man
1962 Getz/Gilberto -- The Girl From Ipanema
1963 Lee Morgan -- The Sidewinder
1964 Herbie Hancock -- Canteloupe Island
1964 Horace Silver -- Song For My Father
1965 Wes Montgomery -- Here's That Rainy Day
1965 Ramsay Lewis -- The 'In' Crowd
1966 Cannonball Adderly -- Mercy, Mercy, Mercy!

So in that sense Giant Steps was a bit of an anomaly.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

merlyn wrote: Here's That Rainy Day
My favorite standard, but not as a bossa nova -- a torchsong like Judy Garland sang it.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:36 pm
merlyn wrote: Here's That Rainy Day
My favorite standard, but not as a bossa nova -- a torchsong like Judy Garland sang it.
I didn't realise you sang like Judy Garland. Are you available for weddings?
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by bhilmers »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:57 amDo you not think the sixties produced some of the most accessible jazz? The sixties is when bossa nova, as discussed above, came into jazz.
Right. I'm a big fan of Bossa Nova and I've always understood it as a distinct genre separate from Jazz. So the real question maybe we should ask is do people like Bossa Nova, which is a Samba, or do they like Jazz? Because all these Bossa Nova tracks with Jazz orchestration are a type of fusion. I agree there was a lot of accessible jazz in the 60s and I think that's partly to do with how embedded it was with media, generally being the soundtrack to a lot of film and television (but of course this wasn't what the kids were into; Jazz was your parent's music and it wasn't cool).
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

merlyn wrote: I didn't realise you sang like Judy Garland. Are you available for weddings?
If you need a date for a wedding, and you prefer a man dressed up like Judy Garland, contact raboof's escort service.

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