RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

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D-Tuned
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:03 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:06 pm When I first read about inversions (first impressions last!), I understood the definition to mean that in a 1st inversion the 3rd moves to bottom (middle E moves to bottom), whereas your interpretation (maybe the correct one) says that the 1st moves to top (low C moves to the top). A low E is the end result in both cases unless I messed this up too.
It's not completely wrong, just a less understandable way of doing it. So the first chord -- easy enough, C root position. The second chord is an open triad. Open triads sound good. Try this :

Image

Approaching inversions as taking the note from the bottom and putting it on the top produces closed voicings and the inversions in order. It's more logical.

You got me confused

In the notation below the first chord is the standard C triad.

The second one is my former way of a 1st inversion where I move the 3rd (E) to below the root 1. Chorderator shows the result as a C/E which in my signage would be a C¦3 both consistent with a 1st inversion.

The third one is your way, moving the root 1 to the top, again effectively yielding a 3rd (E) at the bottom and chorderator shows this one also as a C/E or a 1st inversion.

But the last one is not a C triad anymore, was that a typo? With a G instead of an A it would be exactly the same as mine.
3 inversions.png
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merlyn
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

The two chords were meant to be an example of open triads. Is this clearer?

Image

Here's a longer example :

Image


Image

Oopsie. You've got an F in the bass.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:11 am The two chords were meant to be an example of open triads. Is this clearer?
Image
Certainly is, I couldn't now presume that it was still some exotic C struct :)
Here's a longer example :
Image
No problem, thank you.
Image

Oopsie. You've got an F in the bass.
Europids! {from the early posting hour :lol: }

I don't know how that got in there, but I have a hunch because just last night I re-drew my reference drawing of the DGCFAD neck with the staff notes on top of it. I moved the dot inlays right up to their frets, this way it's a little easier to keep up with it for us mortals who do not yet know by heart either the staff or the fretboard much less the two together.

Paging back to one of your earlier responses I have a question about this list:
C -- C E G
G -- G B D
D -- D F# A
A -- A C# E
E -- E G# B
B -- B D# F#
F#/Gb -- F# A# C#/Gb Bb Db
Db -- Db F Ab
Ab -- Ab C Eb
Eb -- Eb G Bb
Bb -- Bb D F
F -- F A C

Why aren't Db, Ab, Eb & Bb called C#, G#, D# & A# respectively? Does it have to do with the circle of 5ths order? I only ask because some time ago I had decided to show the sharp name of accidental triads and chords on top of the image and the equivalent flat name on the bottom because they represent sliding up and down the neck in the vertical image. At that time I also decided to give all accidentals the sharp filename leaving the flat equivalent to be understood.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:52 pm Why aren't Db, Ab, Eb & Bb called C#, G#, D# & A# respectively?
Before I answer that you could tell us what the advantage is of doing everything with sharps.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:23 am
D-Tuned wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:52 pm Why aren't Db, Ab, Eb & Bb called C#, G#, D# & A# respectively?
Before I answer that you could tell us what the advantage is of doing everything with sharps.
With either sharps, or flats (below), I get seeming consistency although starting the alphabet with Ab reminds me of programmers who start counting by raising their thumb and calling out "zero" :lol:

Ab
A
Bb
B
C
Db
D
Eb
E
F
Gb
G

Placing them in clockwise circle of 5ths order may have a few associative advantages but is that all? When I first saw this list I asked myself "how many accidentals are there and where do they fit"? In an all-flats list for example it's easy to remember that the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th and last letter are flatted (1245). With the all-sharps list it's just as easy to remember that the 1st, 3rd, 4th and last-two are sharped (134L2). I used the all-sharps vertical order in my chords table, using the 5ths-circle order would have made it a hard act to follow methinks.

A
A#
B
C
C#
D
D#
E
F
F#
G
G#

Again I was looking for a way to list them also in an order that my computer could, the McLuhanist bugger will not hear of 'fathers going down to end battles' as a sorting order :lol:
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:08 pm In an all-flats list for example it's easy to remember that the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th and last letter are flatted (1245). With the all-sharps list it's just as easy to remember that the 1st, 3rd, 4th and last-two are sharped (134L2).
I have no idea what that means. Are you talking about key signatures?
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:16 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:08 pm In an all-flats list for example it's easy to remember that the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th and last letter are flatted (1245). With the all-sharps list it's just as easy to remember that the 1st, 3rd, 4th and last-two are sharped (134L2).
I have no idea what that means. Are you talking about key signatures?
Chromatic scale, chord base names, keys, whatever. I had to decide how to organize my tabulated chords matrix; I chose to run the base names top-down on the left and the longer list of qualifications left-right along the top. Not knowing at the outset how the transition frets would work out (where one shape can not go below fret 0 or in my case above fret 9) it all turned out OK with a sharps only list i.e.

A
A#
B
C
C#
D
D#
E
F
F#
G
G#

In perfect hindsight I could also have used the flats only list of the major keys in the 5ths-circle. But had I used the 5ths-circle major keys order as well (below) then I would have run into problems with table clarity particularly with the cited shape transition frets.

C
G
D
A
E
B
F#/Gb
Db
Ab
Eb
Bb
F
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:08 pm ... I asked myself "how many accidentals are there and where do they fit"?
The easy way to remember that is to remember there is a semitone between E and F, and B and C.
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:57 pm Chromatic scale, chord base names, keys, whatever.
For a chromatic scale I would use sharps on the way up :

Image

and flats on the way down :

Image

The key of A# is not something you want to use if you can avoid it. A# has ten sharps. Three double sharps (shown as 'x' below) and four sharps.

Image

Bb is a bit easier, no?

Image

And the root notes of chords -- can you spell an A# triad?

To get what I mean by 'spelling' take F#/Gb. It's the same sound, the same notes and the same fingering, but it can be spelled two different ways. As F# -- F# A# C# or Gb -- Gb Bb Db.

So how do you spell A#?
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:58 am
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:08 pm ... I asked myself "how many accidentals are there and where do they fit"?
The easy way to remember that is to remember there is a semitone between E and F, and B and C.
The 2 note pairs between which there are no accidentals, a strange way to remember but I'm not there yet. Note that most of my issues in this thread are those of an illustrator whereas yours are those of a musician, a position I expect to reach much later.
So how do you spell A#?
A#, D, F :)

Some time ago when I first looked at keys and their purpose I thought I should never bother with keys signed by more than 3 accidentals. I mean if a singer can't handle something from that offering then maybe s/he should deliver pizzas instead :)
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by rghvdberg »

chords are stacks of thirds.
Now think of it as simply skipping one letter of the alphabet.
So A# major chord would be
A# C## (double sharp) E#


Now the tricky part, let's find out what A# D F actually is.

Sort the notes so they skip one letter in the alphabet. Keep in mind that our alphabet loops around after G
D F A#
D F is a minor third
F A# is a major third.
So this is a minor augmented triad.
If A# is the bass note, then this is a D+mi (or maybe Dmi+) in the second inversion.
If I would see this chord in a chart I'd panic.

Pretty sure someone will now comment this is wrong.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

rghvdberg wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:03 am chords are stacks of thirds.
Now think of it as simply skipping one letter of the alphabet.
So A# major chord would be
A# C## (double sharp) E#


Now the tricky part, let's find out what A# D F actually is.

Sort the notes so they skip one letter in the alphabet. Keep in mind that our alphabet loops around after G
D F A#
D F is a minor third
F A# is a major third.
So this is a minor augmented triad.
If A# is the bass note, then this is a D+mi (or maybe Dmi+) in the second inversion.
If I would see this chord in a chart I'd panic.
I would not doubt any of that but as I said my objective was to create myself a learning aid which needs be comes before knowing enough to be a musician. The objectives I set out have been I'm happy to say more than satisfied, most of the goofs and bugs have been fixed in the video and chart and every time I touch the thing I make great progress. I'll put it up on the tube shortly.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by rghvdberg »

Well, have fun.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

rghvdberg wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:28 pm Well, have fun.
I keep getting surprised by how my brain wants to learn instead of
how I thought I would teach it.

Just today, as I was holding down a chord I found myself trying
to figure out what a note under my little finger was. Suddenly
I looked away from the fretboard to the staff and there it was, E.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

rghvdberg wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:03 am F A# is a major third.
So this is a minor augmented triad.
If A# is the bass note, then this is a D+mi (or maybe Dmi+) in the second inversion.
You may kick yourself but ... F A# is a fourth. F A is a major third. If it was F Bb you would have noticed. (D-Tuned take note -- this is what happens when you make spelling mistakes).

If I was going to name D F A# I would call it Dm#5.

In e.g. the Sher system + is used only for an augmented triad. A chord that I used to see in charts as e.g. C7+ -- C E G# Bb would be C7#5.

It's kind of moot because hopefully whoever was writing the chart would realise Dm#5 is Bb. :)

An interesting chord is Cm7#5 :

Image

which is a synonym for Abadd9 :

Image
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:54 am
rghvdberg wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:03 am F A# is a major third.
So this is a minor augmented triad.
If A# is the bass note, then this is a D+mi (or maybe Dmi+) in the second inversion.
You may kick yourself but ... F A# is a fourth. F A is a major third. If it was F Bb you would have noticed. (D-Tuned take note -- this is what happens when you make spelling mistakes).

If I was going to name D F A# I would call it Dm#5.

In e.g. the Sher system + is used only for an augmented triad. A chord that I used to see in charts as e.g. C7+ -- C E G# Bb would be C7#5.

It's kind of moot because hopefully whoever was writing the chart would realise Dm#5 is Bb. :)

An interesting chord is Cm7#5 :

Image

which is a synonym for Abadd9 :

Image
I didn't know what a #5 chord would be about so I looked it up:
it's an added sharp 5th. Great, there's also a No5 chord which
is supposed to invoke negation (the5th removed) were it not for
the fact that "No" is normally an abbreviation of 'number' as well
as # in yet another incarnation. Talk to me about freakin' confusion,
I'll drink the spelling mistake poison if I'm guilty but it's far from
being the root of illustration problems above the root in music :mrgreen:

Since this is a linux hood I might as quote the proverbial handling
of 'mount' by bash gurus to frustrate greenhorns: "mount the mount
device under mountpoint /mount" ...similarly REAL help, not :lol:
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