RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

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D-Tuned
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RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

Reformatting another thread about chord types and names, my
hope here is to get pro and con comments and mostly technical
corrections for any fubars for which I also am known! It all started
with me trying to make my own music learning easier but the
project has taken a life of its own and has already devoured more
time than the quintessential meditation with a beer in hand.

Part one is about guitar chord diagrams that I have tried to
redo with an iconizing mindset meaning with as few pixels
as possible yet offering up the data that "I" thought important
for myself. This is about graphical representation and I will
begin with it, the other parts are general chord attributes
and uses, finishing with the constraints of digital file names.

Let me start with a very basic A chord as it works out with
DGCFAD tuning (use fret 7 with EADGBE tuning)
A_0409.png
A_0409.png (13.07 KiB) Viewed 30385 times
Red=root, black=3rd, gold=5th with optional peripheral triad components shown with a white circle in the middle. The essential part of the diagram is some 100 pixels high which is small enough to populate a page while still remaining readable. The highest fret number (9) is shown which in this case coincides with the chord root fret number. I developed the colors by testing how even the smallest print on a laser printer would preserve them, the weakest part of this is the white-centered gold which begins to lose definition at around 25x50 diagrams on a standard paper page. No need to experiment, I will be posting bigger images later as well as workarounds for those situations requiring more paper for better eyeballing.

By way of leading into upcoming OP comments note that the digital "A_0409" file name begins with the root note letter "A" without any "chord-quality" in this case, followed by an underscore to separate it from the numerical string and fret number. I use the first two digits for string number in anticipation of other string instruments with up to 99 strings. The second two digits are fret number similarly good for 99. Although still very experimental my intent ids a file name that reveals everything about a chord including guitar tuning and voicing, more later :-)
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by milo »

I'm intrigued. So this chord in TAB notation:

0
2
2
2
0
x

Would be A_0500? Or A_0302?
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

milo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:20 pm I'm intrigued. So this chord in TAB notation:

0
2
2
2
0
x

Would be A_0500? Or A_0302?
In my D-Tuned setup it would be an A-0304 but with EADGBE tuning it would be as you correctly guessed A_0302.

If you were to try to make a plain-jane A chord with my filename of A_0304 you would be forced to use my DGCFAD tuning so the file-name gives the voicing as well as the tuning (this needs much more proofing).

As always, if I'm goofing out do let me know, I'm as much on a learning curve here as anyone, even more so :-)
A_0304.png
A_0304.png (13.08 KiB) Viewed 30329 times
While I'm here let me take this a little further (a lazy man's habit that I will continue to use in the form of periodic bite-size expansions of the overall topic).

I don't know how musicians verbalize the slash "/" in a chord name where a bass note foreign to the triad is added at the low end. If the bass note were a "B" then the chord name would begin with */B and, because a slash can't be in a digital file name I would make it a *¦B

Next sidestepping to chord inversions and the fact that the above "¦" is actually under utilized I would widen the use of the broken bar to indicate triad inversions as well so that they too could be deduced right from the file-name even before we see a diagram.
C¦3_0110.png
C¦3_0110.png (10.15 KiB) Viewed 30329 times
Here we have what I think is a C triad 1st inversion so I indicate that with a C-bar-3 "C¦3_0110" (the 3 standing in for the 3rd below the true root). 11 is the highest fret involved and the root is on fret 10 in the file-name. This same triad inversion with a bass F (I have NO idea what that would sound like!) "c"ould be written as C¦3B or C¦B3

Next I come to a minor bump in the road to fame: while "A¦5" would indicate a second inversion of the A triad I really don't know how to call or what file-name to give to an A7 built on the "A¦5" triad like so:
A7¦5_0304.png
A7¦5_0304.png (14.63 KiB) Viewed 30329 times
Should the above be an A7¦5 or an A¦57 which introduces a problem with consecutive numerals (unlike in the above example where distinction between a numeral and a character is easy) of thus far undefined syntax. How do musicians call this chord? I'm just a student ignorant of much more than what I know, especially with slow strumming (a future topic) string instruments both offer a very wide range of voicings but those also easily become a naming nightmare :-)

Finally to close this paragraph of sorts, good (icon) design means focusing on what we want to show, note that after the first image no X'es are shown at the nut on the low strings. Why should they be? The diagram intends to show what fingering to use, we don't finger these strings nor are they plucked open so why pollute the scene with useless fluff? We wanna play the strings that are either open or fretted, period.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:49 am I don't know how musicians verbalize the slash "/" in a chord name where a bass note foreign to the triad is added at the low end.
If I saw C/D I would read that as 'C over D'. On the guitar this is an easy chord as it can be fingered with a barre across the highest five strings at the fifth fret in standard tuning, or the seventh fret when tuned to D. It could also be called D9sus.

Slashes are used to indicate inversions but since we're dealing with specific letter names, the inversions are given with the name of the note. e.g. 1st inversion C -- C/E, 2nd inversion C -- C/G.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by milo »

I might suggest using a different symbol for "C over D" and inversions, just to keep things clear and easily readable. Those are rather different chord manipulations, and they ought to have a rather different notation symbol. I rather like the tilde, which you might consider using: ~

Methinks you are on the precipice of a very deep rabbit hole with this project ... I'm curious to see how it evolves.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:27 am
D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:49 am I don't know how musicians verbalize the slash "/" in a chord name where a bass note foreign to the triad is added at the low end.
If I saw C/D I would read that as 'C over D'. On the guitar this is an easy chord as it can be fingered with a barre across the highest five strings at the fifth fret in standard tuning, or the seventh fret when tuned to D. It could also be called D9sus.

Slashes are used to indicate inversions but since we're dealing with specific letter names, the inversions are given with the name of the note. e.g. 1st inversion C -- C/E, 2nd inversion C -- C/G.
You got me with this one, are you saying that the same slash defines an "over" chord as well as an inversion or is the "--" part of the name too? If the person reading the name does not intuitively know that the letter is not a triad note then how does that person know that it's a triad inversion and not an "over" chord?

I forgot to indicate what the green is for in the previous diagram, it's "the x-triad note that makes the chord what it is", in this case a 7.

And while on this point a minor chord has a flat 3rd but since that one was and remains a triad note I use its triad color with a black tail to show where it came from as it were.
Am_0304.png
Am_0304.png (13.01 KiB) Viewed 30283 times
The issue of parallel names for chords I haven't solved yet, won't be able to either, more on this later.

I'd like to hear from other musicians, anybody call that slash chord a "C on D" for example, anything else?
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

milo wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:02 pm I might suggest using a different symbol for "C over D" and inversions, just to keep things clear and easily readable. Those are rather different chord manipulations, and they ought to have a rather different notation symbol. I rather like the tilde, which you might consider using: ~
The tilde is a very precious character because it really is unique AND a superscript. I had thought of using it for suspended but would gain no real-estate by replacing "s4" with "~4". For the "over" chords and some others IF it's possible to stick close to the traditional then that's my goal UFN. If on the other hand the traditional is weak as symbology goes than maybe I'll change it. Using "+" is ideal for "Add" but is less fitting to say "augment" for which IMHO the circumlex "^" is far superior AND it even has a counterbalancing "˘" available (one version is an appropriate subscript even). And this is what I mean by 'maybe': the traditional dim symbol being "º", I'll likely defer this for some time yet.
Methinks you are on the precipice of a very deep rabbit hole with this project ... I'm curious to see how it evolves.
agreed :-)

But it's a win-win for me, at a minimum it helps me learn about chords.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:12 pm You got me with this one, are you saying that the same slash defines an "over" chord as well as an inversion or is the "--" part of the name too?
You could read C/E as 'C over E' and it would be an inversion. It makes sense. If I play a C triad and the bass player plays a C note we've got a C chord. If the bass player plays a D it's C/D. If the bass player plays an E it's the first inversion of a C chord.

If the person reading the name does not intuitively know that the letter is not a triad note then how does that person know that it's a triad inversion and not an "over" chord?
I don't see how that is a huge problem. You'll pretty soon know which notes are in chords and which aren't. Just play it. You'll hear it.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:07 am
D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:12 pm You got me with this one, are you saying that the same slash defines an "over" chord as well as an inversion or is the "--" part of the name too?
You could read C/E as 'C over E' and it would be an inversion. It makes sense. If I play a C triad and the bass player plays a C note we've got a C chord. If the bass player plays a D it's C/D. If the bass player plays an E it's the first inversion of a C chord.

If the person reading the name does not intuitively know that the letter is not a triad note then how does that person know that it's a triad inversion and not an "over" chord?
I don't see how that is a huge problem. You'll pretty soon know which notes are in chords and which aren't. Just play it. You'll hear it.
OK, I see that for experienced musicians it's almost trivial but how about the student (forget the band with a bass player) trying to guess out of the file-name or qualified chord name not only if it's an "over" chord or an inversion but also which inversion without so much as knowing which notes make up the triad? Once s/he gets to the diagram it all becomes clearer but file-names/chord-names don't always come with diagrams on a staff.

I had the idea to add after the chord number a dash "-" or a tilde "~" followed by a 3 for 1st inversion or a 5 for 2nd inversion (also thought of superscripts but they tend to be too small to eyeball except in the case of easily recognizable symbols). This would immediately distinguish it from an "over" chord and also say "which" inversion. Another way would be to add the info to the chord name as shown in the beginning somewhere. Still another issue raised is how to handle further "quality" added to an inverted triad and not get tangled up in successive single digits with inadequate clarity/definition (which is why I thought of a trailing append after the 4-digit number). System design is phobic of gray areas, I aim to cater to the garage band as well as to the nuclear plant operator :-)
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:14 am OK, I see that for experienced musicians it's almost trivial but how about the student (forget the band with a bass player) trying to guess out of the file-name or qualified chord name not only if it's an "over" chord or an inversion but also which inversion without so much as knowing which notes make up the triad? Once s/he gets to the diagram it all becomes clearer but file-names/chord-names don't always come with diagrams on a staff.
Why do you want to know beforehand whether the chord is an inversion or (we call It) a slash chord? What difference is that going to make?

It seems to me that numbers are out to indicate inversions as numbers are already in use for chord qualities.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:33 am
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:14 am OK, I see that for experienced musicians it's almost trivial but how about the student (forget the band with a bass player) trying to guess out of the file-name or qualified chord name not only if it's an "over" chord or an inversion but also which inversion without so much as knowing which notes make up the triad? Once s/he gets to the diagram it all becomes clearer but file-names/chord-names don't always come with diagrams on a staff.
Why do you want to know beforehand whether the chord is an inversion or (we call It) a slash chord? What difference is that going to make?

It seems to me that numbers are out to indicate inversions as numbers are already in use for chord qualities.
I started by deciding to make myself a directory which I would populate with a fairly representative host of those chord mp3's and diagrams that suit my tuning and fingers. The training video of random selections from this directory is being made as the directory is gradually filling up. I want to include several voicings and inversions of each chord, they presently number just over 100 and I think 200-300 is not an unlikely final figure. Here's the keyword: they all must have a unique file-name or go into different directories, and IF the file-name is really good then I will just refer to chords by that name i.e. the inherent McLuhanism will have turned the medium into the definer. Bottom line, if it sounds different then it has to have a unique name and in the case of a guitar this opens up such a vast field that complete inclusion is impossible without yard-long file or in fact chord names. I hope to strike a practical balance via such constraints as staying below fret #12 (as one example) to keep names below less than maybe 12 characters.

The process itself is teaching me many things in yet another McLuhanian twist. For example much like a bass note prepended at the bottom of a slash-chord changes the fundamental vibes because bass sounds are by acoustic nature supportive, so do extra triad notes appended at the top accent the chord in a way that bass supports cannot. This is particularly true if arpeggiating (see my midi-arpeggiating post). It was when I got to this point that I decided to get deeper into both inversions and the effects of widening the chord especially asymmetrically which includes slash chords (if that's how musicians call them). All of this has to find a way into file-names and thus into (my) chord names.

G_0407.png
G_0407.png (12.26 KiB) Viewed 30220 times
This G chord is symmetrically balanced with some triad elements below and above it sounds wider and richer


G¦5_0302-1.png
G¦5_0302-1.png (12.79 KiB) Viewed 30220 times
This one is at the same time a 2nd inversion (the /5) and assymmetrical with a root note (the -1) high overhead as it were, it sounds totally different. It's assymmertical even with a root below because the high accents output by the guitar are heard over lower ones in a realm belonging to the bass if sounding. I would even postulate that when such a chord is arpeggiated the low root as well as any bass should remain silent but ALL this is very experimental at this point, the names are provisional too, as they happen to be this morning in my 'directory' :-)
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 pm This one is at the same time a 2nd inversion (the /5) and assymmetrical with a root note (the -1) high overhead as it were, it sounds totally different.
You're right. You have discovered the principle that the most important note in a chord is the highest note. It's normal when learning to think of chords from the bottom up, but as you've noticed it's the top note that makes the most difference.
Next I come to a minor bump in the road to fame: while "A¦5" would indicate a second inversion of the A triad I really don't know how to call or what file-name to give to an A7 built on the "A¦5" triad like so:
Image
To me that is an A7 with the 7th on top. That is the most important feature; the top note is what we hear. This fingering is guitar friendly, unlike closed voiced seventh chords like this :

Image

The voicing with A on the top is the first inversion and is a bit of a stretch. There are three inversions of a seventh chord. The fingering that you posted above is what I would call a 'drop 2 voicing'. The second note from the top is dropped an octave. We take the root position seventh chord and drop the E an octave :

Image

then re-finger it so it's easy :

Image
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:44 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 pm This one is at the same time a 2nd inversion (the /5) and assymmetrical with a root note (the -1) high overhead as it were, it sounds totally different.
You're right. You have discovered the principle that the most important note in a chord is the highest note. It's normal when learning to think of chords from the bottom up, but as you've noticed it's the top note that makes the most difference.
Next I come to a minor bump in the road to fame: while "A¦5" would indicate a second inversion of the A triad I really don't know how to call or what file-name to give to an A7 built on the "A¦5" triad like so:
Image
To me that is an A7 with the 7th on top. That is the most important feature; the top note is what we hear. This fingering is guitar friendly, unlike closed voiced seventh chords like this :

Image

The voicing with A on the top is the first inversion and is a bit of a stretch. There are three inversions of a seventh chord. The fingering that you posted above is what I would call a 'drop 2 voicing'. The second note from the top is dropped an octave. We take the root position seventh chord and drop the E an octave :

Image

then re-finger it so it's easy :

Image
You lost me again, I thought there were only 2 triad inversions: in the 1st inversion the 3rd falls back below the root, in the 2nd inversion the 5th falls back below the root (no inversion assigned to the 5th and 3rd switching places). The 3rd inversion is possible only with 4 note chords and then it means the at the 4th note falls back below the root. Is THIS correct?

So in terms of my references as of this evening I would show The 1st inversion of a C triad as C¦3, the second inversion as a C¦5, the 7 version of this last one as C¦5~7 and the 3rd inversion of a standard C7 as C7¦7. Over-Bass or "slash" would be shown as C¦D where the note letter instead on the interval says it's not an inversion but a bass slash.

I just updated my confusion matrix, posted separately :-)
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

A how-goes-it heads-up of where it stands this evening:

m = minor
M = major
¦ = slash: C¦3 = C 1st inversion, C¦5 = C 2nd inversion, C¦D = C slash D (a D as bass)
neither the / nor the | can be used in file names
a 3 or a 5 means and interval number and the appropriate inversion (1st & 2nd respectively)
a letter such as D is a chord/D slash chord

^ = augmented
(+ was a very bad original idea)

º = diminished
keeping this traditional degree sign against my will
because I could not find an acceptable (ascii) mirror
sign of "^" for "augmented"

5 = power: C5 = C power chord
6 = 6th, always a major 6:
7 = 7th, default a minor 7th: C7= C+m7 (dominant 7), Cm7 = Cm+m7, CM7 = C+maj7, CmM7 = Cm+major7
+ = Add (always a major 9) to a major or minor triad: C+9 = C+M9, Cm+9 = Cm+M9

x = extended (always to a 4 note (default m7) chord, the extension qualified as # or b if required): G7x13 = G7 plus 13th, B7xb9 = B7 plus b9, D7x#11 = D7 plus #11

[I may combine extended with add, working on it]

× = accent (tentative): root 1, third 3, or fifth 5 on top of triad. Triad notes under the triad are noted only if inversions (bass realm).

Much like a triad¦Bass (C¦D) kinda 'clarifies the basic facts' a ¦triad-interval (C¦3) gives a sub-mood to the triad. These cover the low and the middle ground but the more important high ground is not addresses that I know of so for lack af a better key I call it 'accent' and am considering using a * to introduce it. While a C¦3 or a C¦D thundering in the treetops like a B-17 give the chord emotion-motor fundamentals the high note over them chimes like a P-51 hammerhead overhead. This is "×" for accent and is provisionally limited to the last triad interval repeated on top of the chord (extra-triad notes are normally on top of the triad and thus are already annotated elsewhere. The × accent can be a 1, a 3 or a 5 on top of all others.

...just ran into a * upload block, I could move the chord file between filesytems but it will not place inline, so I quickly reconfigured to using the multiplication sign "×"
E7×1_0602.png
E7×1_0602.png (11.31 KiB) Viewed 30093 times
a very rich sounding chord with a low 1st/root in the bass realm and an accent 1st/root octaves higher.

That's it for now, I'm tired!
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:00 am

You lost me again, I thought there were only 2 triad inversions: in the 1st inversion the 3rd falls back below the root, in the 2nd inversion the 5th falls back below the root (no inversion assigned to the 5th and 3rd switching places). The 3rd inversion is possible only with 4 note chords and then it means the at the 4th note falls back below the root. Is THIS correct?
No.
So in terms of my references as of this evening I would show The 1st inversion of a C triad as C¦3, the second inversion as a C¦5, the 7 version of this last one as C¦5~7 and the 3rd inversion of a standard C7 as C7¦7. Over-Bass or "slash" would be shown as C¦D where the note letter instead on the interval says it's not an inversion but a bass slash.
I can't recommend anyone uses this notation.
D-Tuned wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:00 am
¦ = slash: C¦3 = C 1st inversion, C¦5 = C 2nd inversion, C¦D = C slash D (a D as bass)
neither the / nor the | can be used in file names
a 3 or a 5 means and interval number and the appropriate inversion (1st & 2nd respectively)
a letter such as D is a chord/D slash chord
I wouldn't do that myself.
^ = augmented
(+ was a very bad original idea)
The accepted symbol for augmented is +.
+ = Add (always a major 9) to a major or minor triad: C+9 = C+M9, Cm+9 = Cm+M9
The accepted symbol for an add chord is 'add'.
x = extended (always to a 4 note (default m7) chord, the extension qualified as # or b if required): G7x13 = G7 plus 13th, B7xb9 = B7 plus b9, D7x#11 = D7 plus #11
This is unnecessary.
× = accent (tentative): root 1, third 3, or fifth 5 on top of triad. Triad notes under the triad are noted only if inversions (bass realm).
This is also unnecessary.

There are thousands of chord charts around that use the accepted chord notation. Why cut yourself off from that?
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