# or b chord/note labeling RULES?

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D-Tuned
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# or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by D-Tuned »

No matter how often I try to reprog myself every now and then I still bump into this issue. The following jaming
track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyZ1IPrpvLg

brings up the 2nd chord in the sequence as a G#m. But the same track run in Sonic-Visualiser brings it up as an Abm. Nor is this solely Sonic-Visualiser behavior, I see it here and there.

When I store image files of guitar chord diagrams that can be called either way I give them file names that include both, begining with the lower base such as G#-Ab.png and I also reflect this duality in the diagram later to be edited as needed. But musical keys are not digital filing systems so dual accidental notes or chords have to be named one or the other: only flats in minor keys and only sharps in major keys UNLESS that would cause a conflict.

What am I missing, any wisdom out there about this? TIA
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

It depends on the key signature of the song. If the key is f major (1 flat), then use flats in your score. If the key is d major (2 sharps) then use sharps in your score.

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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by nils »

The following is only a heuristic rule, but better than 80/20:

There is something called the "Pillars of Fifths", most often wrongly described as "circle of fifths".
Each step a fifths up or down is considered more far away from your root note or tonic.
Choose always the enharmonic variant that is closer (in steps-of-fifths) to your root note.
If you play "in C" then Ab is 4 steps down in the pillar. And G# is 8 steps up.

Your root note may change throughout the piece, through modulations.
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by D-Tuned »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:29 pm It depends on the key signature of the song. If the key is f major (1 flat), then use flats in your score. If the key is d major (2 sharps) then use sharps in your score.
Cool, so the right side of the 5th's circle is #'s and b's for the left. This is a little more precise than the 'alphabetic' key signature using a flat or not but I guess it forces one to think of key sigs in terms of #'s and b's ..cannot hurt I guess :-)

Thank you
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by D-Tuned »

nilshi wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:41 pm The following is only a heuristic rule, but better than 80/20:

There is something called the "Pillars of Fifths", most often wrongly described as "circle of fifths".
Each step a fifths up or down is considered more far away from your root note or tonic.
Choose always the enharmonic variant that is closer (in steps-of-fifths) to your root note.
If you play "in C" then Ab is 4 steps down in the pillar. And G# is 8 steps up.

Your root note may change throughout the piece, through modulations.
Thanks

This one's a little more complicated than jeffg's answer, I suppose we always count counterclockwise too.

I'm starting to see the light!

#1 Lazy-Bum's rule is to type the key name into google and voila the list of notes :lol: :lol: :lol:

#2 If the key name or sig has flats in it then use b's

# If still in doubt then count off from the root note of the key
Artificial-Stupidity will never be competitive
j_e_f_f_g
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

Of course nils is going to give a more complicated answer than me.

I write software for people so lazy they use a touchscreen rather than a mouse.

nils develops a JACK session manager.

I keed, nils.
I keed.

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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by merlyn »

nilshi wrote: ... most often wrongly described as "circle of fifths".
It looks fairly circular to me.

Image
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by nils »

merlyn wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 am It looks fairly circular to me.
The dominant chord to F# is C#, and not Db.

If you really want a circular layout, look for an image where it is a spiral, and not a closed circle.
This is my "pillar", just rolled up. And additionally you can see all enharmonic variants next to each other, without pretending they are the same.
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by merlyn »

nilshi wrote:If you really want a circular layout, look for an image where it is a spiral, and not a closed circle.
This is my "pillar", just rolled up. And additionally you can see all enharmonic variants next to each other, without pretending they are the same.
I see. You're talking about Pythagorean tuning where fifths are generated with the ratio 3/2. That produces a spiral of fifths.

A piano or guitar uses twelve tone equal temperament where fifths are generated with the irrational ratio 2^(7/12). This means Gb and F# are the same note.

Bach promoted tempered tuning as is evident in his 48 preludes and fugues. Bach closed the spiral. Adopting tempered tuning means the cycle or circle of fifths is closed.
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by nils »

merlyn wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:01 pm I see. You're talking about ...
No, I was not.
Maybe another time.
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Re: # or b chord/note labeling RULES?

Post by merlyn »

Ok, play in the key of Cb if you want. I'll play in B. :lol:
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