chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Ask general music theory or songwriting questions, get feedback!

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

I thought I had just posted about this but cannot find it, maybe I hit the cancel button. My apologies if it's duplication, gonna keep this edition short.

I'm looking for a few 'pleasant enough' songs that use all but only the standard chords in their key. Slow rock would be good as it can be played at different speeds but I'm open to any suggestions.

TIA
User avatar
Loki Harfagr
Established Member
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:28 pm
Has thanked: 151 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by Loki Harfagr »

"Then Came the Last Days of May" would help, you might have the idea the 7th is missing but it's only substituted ;-)
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:50 pm "Then Came the Last Days of May" would help, you might have the idea the 7th is missing but it's only substituted ;-)
Thanks... Hey that thing sounds not bad at all!

I found a 3-track midi of it too, looks like I'll have to separate the chords out of the Guitar-1 track though. It uses chords Am, F, G, E, C, D, Dm, Em, Gm & A which is not what I'm looking for. What I want is one which in the key of C would use C Dm Em F G Am Bdim. Last days of may will be good for paracticing off-standard chord content.

Meanwhile I found Pachelbel's Canon wich uses everything except ii & vii which I think means the 3rd minor and the 7th diminished (I'm not much in theory). Just poking around it seems like I could work a ii in anywhere before a iii or a V. The vii is less clear, I don't see it in any progressions.
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by merlyn »

It's an interesting idea -- one song for all seven chords.

Bob Dylan's Like A Rolling Stone has five out of seven, and they're in the right order. Verse :

| C / Dm / | Em / F / | G / / / | G / / /|

A good reference song is Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen -- the lyrics refer to the chords.

It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing "Hallelujah"


If it was in C :
It goes like this -- C
the fourth -- F
the fifth -- G
the minor fall -- Am
the major lift -- F

Then the king gets baffled by G and Em. This song also has five chords out of seven.

I can't think of a song off the top of my head that uses a diminished triad which in C would be B diminished -- B D F. This is a G7 without a root so if a B diminished triad were to appear it would have a G7 sound.

When a diminished chord does appear it's usually a diminished 7th -- B diminished 7 is B D F Ab or a stack of minor thirds. It's a symmetrical chord so any of the notes can be the root. A well known song with a diminished 7th is Strawberry Fields Forever. It appears when the lyrics go "nothing is real" -- the wonky sound of a diminished 7th is appropriate for these lyrics.

I can think of a song with seven chords although it is in a minor key -- Autumn Leaves. If it was in Am (the relative minor of C) the first part is:

| Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / | Cmaj7 / / / | Fmaj7 / / / |
| Bm7b5 / / / | E7 / / / | Am7 / / / | Am7 / / / |

Now we have have four note chords which puts this towards the jazz end of the spectrum. Bm7b5 is also called B half diminished and is B D F A. E7 might look out of place but it's diatonic in a minor key -- it comes from A harmonic minor.

This 'going round in fourths' progression is common from Bach to Gloria Gaynor -- I Will Survive is :

||: Am / / / | Dm / / / | G / / / | C / / / |
| F / / / | Bm7b5 / / / | E7 / / / | E7 / / / : ||
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

merlyn wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:09 pm It's an interesting idea -- one song for all seven chords.
The idea was just a path to some indefinite learning aid. Little did I know that most songs do NOT use all chords of a key or even restrict to chords in that key. I got the evidently/eminently screwed up notion form key-chord pages like

https://www.piano-keyboard-guide.com/wp ... 5x1024.png

If it weren't for a vii-dim on there I never would have thought of it. Don't forget that I'm a brain-stem level novice in music and will likely never get any higher than that

Bob Dylan's Like A Rolling Stone has five out of seven, and they're in the right order. Verse :
| C / Dm / | Em / F / | G / / / | G / / /|
A good reference song is Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen -- the lyrics refer to the chords.
It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing "Hallelujah"


If it was in C :
It goes like this -- C
the fourth -- F
the fifth -- G
the minor fall -- Am
the major lift -- F
Then the king gets baffled by G and Em. This song also has five chords out of seven.
It sure helps to be using songs we like for learning. I was never a Cohen fan but got sold on Dylan when the Byrds popularized Back Pages. At that age we were both born shit disturbers :)))


I can think of a song with seven chords although it is in a minor key -- Autumn Leaves. If it was in Am (the relative minor of C) the first part is:

| Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / | Cmaj7 / / / | Fmaj7 / / / |
| Bm7b5 / / / | E7 / / / | Am7 / / / | Am7 / / / |

Now we have have four note chords which puts this towards the jazz end of the spectrum. Bm7b5 is also called B half diminished and is B D F A. E7 might look out of place but it's diatonic in a minor key -- it comes from A harmonic minor.

This 'going round in fourths' progression is common from Bach to Gloria Gaynor -- I Will Survive is :

||: Am / / / | Dm / / / | G / / / | C / / / |
| F / / / | Bm7b5 / / / | E7 / / / | E7 / / / : ||
Geez, such a lovely simple tune, I will add it to my list because I remember the magic of the moment when I first heard it (I'm that way with songs that I become addicted to).
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

fretski wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:08 pm I thought I had just posted about this but cannot find it, maybe I hit the cancel button. My apologies if it's duplication, gonna keep this edition short.I'm looking for a few 'pleasant enough' songs that use all but only the standard chords in their key. Slow rock would be good as it can be played at different speeds but I'm open to any suggestions. TIA
Before anyone spends calories chasing my butterflies, a little honesty. I just spent better part of the day looking for something that doesn't exist: a limited number of exclusive chord progressions and an even more limited number of songs that would include ONLY the standard chords in their key.

I fubarred up, it's that simple. The purpose of the exercise being to produce a training/practice video to help with learning all the standard chords in all keys remains my objective. So maybe I'll just look for a limted number of songs THE COLLECTION OF WHICH covers all standard chords and transpose these into every key instead. I continue wanting to avoid non-standard chords at this stage, something that may or may not be possible.

I've already made rosegarden files for many chord progressions, I think that the following songs (because I like them in addition to their suitable chord progressions) might be a way to go:

Hotel California/ Pachelbel's Canon I-V-v i-iii-IV-I-IV-V

Con Te Partiro I-V-vi-IV

All I have To Do I-vi-IV-V

Sultans Of Swing vi-V-IV-iii

Right Here Waiting vi-IV-I-V

May It Be/Halellujah I-iii-IV-vi

Silent Night/Johnny Be Good I-IV-I-V

Jingle Bell Rock I-IV-ii-V


Due to sheer volume I'll probably just make a video for each song as it cyclers through all the keys. That shopuld hekp with getting a feel for the chords in their keys (plan-B).
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

merlyn wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:09 pm It's an interesting idea -- one song for all seven chords.
Bob Dylan's Like A Rolling Stone has five out of seven, and they're in the right order. Verse :
| C / Dm / | Em / F / | G / / / | G / / /|
With previous ideas gone to file-13 I'm back reading THIS because my last flash-in-the-pan as of yesterday is a straight linear progression I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii which I thought sounded pretty awful even for an exercise. BUT as Dylan has shown all is not hopeless. If I can replace the second "V" (G) in there with the vi then all I need is an additional vii to be in business with something that might even sounds like a song.

Which takes me back to the other issue of vii being better off as a 7 instead of a diminished. Would that be a B7 then, B-D-F#-A ?

Once I nail down the chords to use, even in sequence and without repetition, I could pretty it up with the beat and some arpeggios to make it 'listenable'.
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by merlyn »

fretski wrote: Which takes me back to the other issue of vii being better off as a 7 instead of a diminished.
I didn't explain that very well. Bdim is the upper part of G7.

We make chords by going up in thirds. Here is G7 :

C D E F G A B C D E F

And here is Bdim :

C D E F G A B C D E F

The only difference between G7 and Bdim is the G root note. If you're playing with a backing track that has a bassline then you can play Bdim when the chord is G7 because the bass is putting in the root.
fretski wrote:Would that be a B7 then, B-D-F#-A ?
B D F# A is Bm7.

For a practice progression that uses all seven diatonic triads I came up with this :

||: F / / / | Bdim / / / | Em / / / | Am / / / |
| Dm / / / | G / / / | C / / / | C7 / / / : ||

Putting the C7 in the last bar makes this a good loop by leading back to the F.
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

Meanwhile here in learning-curve valley enjoying what the air-force calls helmet-fire, thank you first and foremost. Allow me to deal with the issues in a slightly different order.
For a practice progression that uses all seven diatonic triads I came up with this :
||: F / / / | Bdim / / / | Em / / / | Am / / / |
| Dm / / / | G / / / | C / / / | C7 / / / : ||
Putting the C7 in the last bar makes this a good loop by leading back to the F.
I will certainly try this out today. Meanwhile I made 2 test videos just poking around for that feel and most importantly how to get to it (strictly beta phase):

C.webm
https://tinyurl.com/y62qv6tk

G.mp4
https://tinyurl.com/y2tlbdgs

It so happens that I included a bass track, not knowing why, just thought it made the chords sound better than the syntesized packman-beep triads :))) The staff represents the audio, not necessarily the displayed guitar chord. I'm going to complete all the keys in this linear format for starters (keeping all the pieces in the kdenlive files for use elsewhere). Trying to teach is the best way to learn.

merlyn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:51 am I didn't explain that very well. Bdim is the upper part of G7.
We make chords by going up in thirds. Here is G7 :
C D E F G A B C D E F
And here is Bdim :
C D E F G A B C D E F

The only difference between G7 and Bdim is the G root note. If you're playing with a backing track that has a bassline then you can play Bdim when the chord is G7 because the bass is putting in the root.
I see the bolded pattern. What if the root note is an octave higher, above the 3rd & 5th? This happens often with a guitar where one may not be able to execute just any fingering at will. Is it also necessatry for any added 7th (7, M7, or m7) to be below the triad?

B D F# A is Bm7.
Yes, cought that since (I think). My chords often come out rather different from one another even when they are the same :)

The closest fingering "I" can muster for a B7 in G is D-G-B-F

Which brings me to another question: don't we have to cite the key for a chord-build? What if the B7 to be built is in the key of B when the lowered 7 to be added to the major triad would be an A (the 7th in B scale being A#)?
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by merlyn »

I watched the videos. The one in C -- the last chord is Bm7b5. I found it jarring to end on that chord :) For a resolution put a C chord at the end. Am going to Bm7b5 sounded good. You could try a Bdim triad with the goal of getting to know the diatonic triads, even viidim :) You may find you prefer Bm7b5 which is still diatonic.

The one in G -- F#7 sounds wrong and ending on it is quite jarring. If you have accidentals (sharps or flats) the progression is not diatonic. Try F#m7b5 which is F# A C E followed by G to resolve it.
fretski wrote: What if the root note is an octave higher, above the 3rd & 5th?
G B D F is the spelling of G7. In practice when you play a G7 you use a voicing. G B D F is the closed voicing of G7 and closed voicings are often difficult or impossible to finger on the guitar so G7 might be played with a voicing that misses out the fifth string -- G F B D. G on the 6th, F on the 4th, B on the 3rd, D on the 2nd. The order of the notes doesn't matter.
fretski wrote:don't we have to cite the key for a chord-build?
No. B7 tells us four notes -- B D# F# A always and in any key.

You've got the right idea -- start simple and build it up. Keep going!
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

merlyn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:47 pm
fretski wrote:don't we have to cite the key for a chord-build?
No. B7 tells us four notes -- B D# F# A always and in any key.

You've got the right idea -- start simple and build it up. Keep going!
I need to know how to build one, the 7 chord is built from a major triad to which we add the lowered 7th. There's a curve in here I need to straighten out: the 7th of what? If we count from the key root and it's the lowered 7th note of the key then I need to know the key, if it's the lowered 7th note in the key up from the chord root then I'm not so sure as that can be figured out without knowing the key (but would maybe depend on the mode)?

Meanwhile I made the practice video with your progression, sounds good, hopefully fewer mistakes in it then the other two. These links will die, once I have final and corrected versions I might put them on u-tube.

https://tinyurl.com/yyppsrb3

Thanks
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by merlyn »

It's good to relate theory to musical examples. Then theory seems less like a set of abstract rules. The sound comes first, then theory arises to describe common practices. So for a seventh chord from outside the key I'll use The Girl From Ipanema.

Image

The key signature tells us this song is in F major. Then the second chord is G7. It means G7 -- G B D F even though the note B is not in the key. The diatonic chord in the key of F with a G root is Gm7. But here that is not the chord, and the chord symbol tells us that.
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

merlyn wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:57 pm It's good to relate theory to musical examples. Then theory seems less like a set of abstract rules. The sound comes first, then theory arises to describe common practices. So for a seventh chord from outside the key I'll use The Girl From Ipanema.

Image

The key signature tells us this song is in F major. Then the second chord is G7. It means G7 -- G B D F even though the note B is not in the key. The diatonic chord in the key of F with a G root is Gm7. But here that is not the chord, and the chord symbol tells us that.
merlyn wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:57 pm It's good to relate theory to musical examples. Then theory seems less like a set of abstract rules. The sound comes first, then theory arises to describe common practices. So for a seventh chord from outside the key I'll use The Girl From Ipanema.

Image

The key signature tells us this song is in F major. Then the second chord is G7. It means G7 -- G B D F even though the note B is not in the key. The diatonic chord in the key of F with a G root is Gm7. But here that is not the chord, and the chord symbol tells us that.
Part B:
I well understand that a chord written down in a song is what it is and that it doesn't otherwise need to be anything else than what it is if it sounds good :) I have a few questions now and then about labels and syntax.

Part A:
Is where I'm at and here there is mostly theory and system concept. There is little point in my learning to get into Mars orbit before being able to hit escape velocity leaving the point of departure. All my life I've had to treat things as if they were nuclear weapons, having to know the theory inside out, blindfolded with one hand standing on my head in 2 seconds or less without a single mistake before approaching the practical within so much as 50 feet. A bit of extremely applicable spot exercise being helpful to illustrate theory, the theory needs first of all to be rational beyond imagination and clearly expressed.

Having studied communications (also) in my youth at the dawn of globalization I was taught that it will never again suffice for some explanation to be understandable,
it will henceforth have to be impossible to misundestand what is said and to such ends at least three different approaches will have to provide accomodation for the many background linguistic/cultural shades.
In other words there will be a need to explain everything three diferent ways so that even automated translation will provide a bulletproof blurb and an end to chinese-user-manuals for ever :) As an example, how does one explain the second 2nd element with a 2 or with a ii to people who may come from a background in which the language does not have a number two, or in which 1 and 2 are the only numbers, or in which the number 7 is extremely lucky/unlucky?

For now my stumbling blocks are in Part-A. I started another thread about the 7 chord labelS and am adding more under that header. The Girl From Ipanema is another nice song but would seem to be from the list of exceptions rather than the go-to standards. I started this topic thinking that not one but even several songs showcasing all the standard and only standard chords of a key surely existed, maybe they don't, not even one :)
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by merlyn »

I think one of the reasons you didn't like the sound of the diatonic triads in scale order is that it is continuous parallel motion. It is possible to make the chords move downwards even though the roots are going up the scale like this :

Image

This is written for guitar so you can try playing it.
fretski
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 am
Location: around 48n66w

Re: chord showcasing swiss-knife songs?

Post by fretski »

merlyn wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:30 pm I think one of the reasons you didn't like the sound of the diatonic triads in scale order is that it is continuous parallel motion. It is possible to make the chords move downwards even though the roots are going up the scale like this :

Image

This is written for guitar so you can try playing it.
Thanks, that's very new for me, such descending ascent :-)

https://tinyurl.com/y2xdysby

I made an effort to make the bass 'linearly' ascending, I must admit that's probably the first time I ever hear a Dim chord that doesn't sound like shit (to my ears), making this also another lesson in the use of bass :)

It isn't of course only because of the bass, but its influence can be significant. Once I worked over a midi file of Dans Le Monde Entier but painted myself into a corner with digital bass that was just booming above a certain pitch. Didn't know what to do until (untrained but desparate) I decided to scatter some bass notes a full octave lower, and it worked! I had to get it right because it was the underpinning for drums that sound like the splashing waves over a deep ocean (of bass). It all came together nicely in the end, or at least it seemed so to me, and I learned more about bass in that one exercise than in any other. And now I've seen how bass can also help 'steer' a segment so to speak.

https://tinyurl.com/y2wolmd6
Post Reply