What makes Jazz, jazz

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Gps
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:57 am
bhilmers wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:19 pm
merlyn wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:35 amGiant Steps was important, but I don't think it blew jazz to pieces, as you're suggesting.
I'm not suggesting that Giant Steps did anything to Jazz, rather it is a popular example of Jazz in that era versus Jazz in the early years. My point isn't that Coltrane made the change happen, but rather he was riding the wave of change.
Do you not think the sixties produced some of the most accessible jazz? The sixties is when bossa nova, as discussed above, came into jazz. The Girl From Ipanema, Song For My Father and Here's That Rainy Day have a bossa (Brazilian) beat. The rest of these tracks have that sixties jazz feel.

1962 Herbie Hancock -- Watermelon Man
1962 Getz/Gilberto -- The Girl From Ipanema
1963 Lee Morgan -- The Sidewinder
1964 Herbie Hancock -- Canteloupe Island
1964 Horace Silver -- Song For My Father
1965 Wes Montgomery -- Here's That Rainy Day
1965 Ramsay Lewis -- The 'In' Crowd
1966 Cannonball Adderly -- Mercy, Mercy, Mercy!

So in that sense Giant Steps was a bit of an anomaly.
I know one of those songs, but as often, I think I recognize it from a cover version.

Canteloupe Island

In my mp3 playlist , there is DONALD BYRD - CANTALOUPE ISLAND

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xicL4pdFwI

In my head though is different version. Slightly faster and I am pretty sure somebody sings / shouts delidi bom over it.

Found it:
US3 - Cantaloop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwBjhBL9G6U

Been wondering for a while were they stole it, and now I know. 8)

Probably just a speed up sample with some rap over it.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by artix_linux_user »

turnarounds and syncopes
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

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What are turnarounds in this context ?
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by artix_linux_user »

mmm,...some one who studies or who studied music should answer this...but ok, first the definition from wiki, which I think aint right lol...but who am I? I know nothing, you are askign the wrong guy...well:

Turnaround (music), in jazz or blues, a transitional passage at the end of a section

I think this definition aint good...well what is a transitional passage - aint everything in a transitional passage? lololol

at the end of a section....I am no good with words, I would think a section is a part of the symphonic orchestra and not a part of the score...like brass section

mmm, and in my own words...heavy stuff now:
small movements in the chords and in the melody lines, which mostly means chromatic movements which allways sound jazzy lol
if the one tone aint right the next one is, 100% sure lolol
So small movements in the chords mean you maybe just play one note different, maybe one half step up or down...this way you are changing the harmony and maybe the modality.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by merlyn »

First of all, what is turning around? It's the harmony -- the chords. In jazz a turnaround is a chord loop that gets back to where it started. The most common turnaround is a 1 6 2 5, which in C would be

| C / Am / | Dm / G / |

as triads. Making these into four note chords it would be

| Cmaj7 / Am7 / | Dm7 / G7 / |

That's a diatonic turnaround. It's more jazz to make the A a dominant chord as

| Cmaj7 / A7 / | Dm7 / G7 / |

This 1 6 2 5 progression is derived from a 1 6 4 5 progression which is the basis of a lot of doo-wop pop songs from the 50s. Here is a Frank Zappa tribute to doo-wop -- The Closer You Are. This is in Bb, so the chords of the first part are

| Bb / Gm / | Eb / F / |

In jazz the chord progression called rhythm changes starts out with a 1 6 2 5 progression as heard on Anthropology by Charlie Parker. It doesn't sound like a 50s doo-wop song, but it's the same harmonic idea underlying it. :D
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Thank you both, now it makes sense.

I need to put those notes into LMMS, and listen to it.

I am also getting this feeling, I am in way over my head. :lol:

Anthropology: To me it sounds like the melody and rhythm are almost not related.

The bassline sounds very basic, but quit fast. :)

On the bright side:
To me this proofs one thing. My ears have improved music wise once again.
Not to long ago, I would not have heard that bassline following the chord progression ? melody.

I would in LMMS get the note distance right, using all the same notes, and then being totally confused why it sounds different.

Never give up never surrender.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Michael Willis »

Gps wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:25 pm Never give up never surrender.
Keep moving forward! I really like reading about what you're doing. You're learning something new and unfamiliar, and not letting the difficulty stop you. :)
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by carlv »

Michael Willis wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:16 am ...and not letting the difficulty stop you.
Damn them darn torpedoes.. :!:
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Michael Willis wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:16 am
Gps wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:25 pm Never give up never surrender.
Keep moving forward! I really like reading about what you're doing. You're learning something new and unfamiliar, and not letting the difficulty stop you. :)
I am still very proud, about covering one track. People much better at music warned me about it, me as a beginner should not attempt it.
There was no midi file, or at least I could not find it, but I could find sheet music.

Now I understand sheet music a bit, but I cant read it and then play it. Every single note takes me about 30 seconds to get it into LMMS.
For every note I need to count, if this is an C then that note must be a G or what ever. Then those damn rest in sheetmusic....

James Last - Biscaya ( two arcordions, a bandoneon and a synthesizer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqRbSkoiWI

My cover and I am still frustrated my accordions don't sound that good. (a free VST)

https://soundcloud.com/user586365033/biscaya

Not sure what to call this type of music, its not EDM nor Disco, but I love it.

Sometimes being very stubborn helps.

To quote Jeremy Clarkson, how hard can it be? I do have that attitude, and often like Jeremy instantly regret it. :lol:

One thing that I do seem to have is very good feel for rhythm.
I started to cover, The Cure - A forest, from sheet music but I did not understand one specific part of that sheet music.
After failing for over 2 hours on one bloody note, I said screw this sheet music I am gonna put that note in by ear (timing)
I hooked up my midi controller, and pressed a key.

Then I was totally in shock, looking at the piano roll in LMMS.
OWWW, that was what that sheet music was trying to tell me. :lol:

The cure a forest has one note, before a bar, and then 3 notes at the end of the track after the last bar.
I forgot the official name for this, but it did proof my sense is timing is good.

So back to jazz, how hard can it be? :P

Its funny, often when I attempt to cover something, I pick something I really like, and this gets me into trouble every time, because I seem to have a taste for your not so standard music.

Another example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99QQIXez4M

It sounds so easy but its not 4/4 its 3/4.

John Barry, who also made music for some of the James Bond movies.
Last edited by Gps on Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

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Listening to this right now:

Acid Jazz Instrumentals - 2 Hours non stop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuU6b6Seh9c

Some tracks in there I would not call Jazz but Funk.

First tracks sounds Jazz to me but that second track? I do like it, but it's not truly jazz to me. That's Funk.

Maybe Funk and Jazz are more related then I am assuming? Or is this just another bad labelled you tube vid? :lol:
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by artix_linux_user »

I am listening to this now:

https://youtu.be/7b2T8K2D-ps

It's less jazz and much much more acid
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

I like and know that track, but as far as I understand it, has noting to with jazz. :)


I keep getting surprised by some Jazz playlists.

There is boogie woogie in it. :shock:

This woman however can play boogie woogie for me any day.

Not sure if this qualifies as Jazz, but there are improvisations.

My hands start to hurt, just from watching her play. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoyjkh ... Q&index=11

Slow Jazz does not seem to be my thing.

The original is from Porgy and bess, sumertime, but this version is boringly slow to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxIPVAP ... Q&index=12

Not my cup of Jazz.

This one I like a lot more, although its not that fast either:
Brubeck: Koto Song | The Dave Brubeck Quartet, Live in Belgium 1964

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbjEImQ ... Q&index=14
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Might have found the perfect vid for me.

For now don't a clue on how to do this in LMMS or any other daw. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4g6SsCo35s

That note spacing, definitely something I need to learn. Might try this out with my midi controller. (midi keyboard)

That one anda two counting. He said 1/8 notes, sound like a good starting point for lmms. 1/8 notes.

Change the default quantization, fingers crossed. 8)

Another Jazz track I know :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrU_CpIUEDw
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Swing in LMMS.

Vid almost proofs why I am not using the bbe, you need to go to the piano roll anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX-LWhwxIQE&t=43s

So its about moving the notes, not on 1 and 3. :)
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