RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Ask general music theory or songwriting questions, get feedback!

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D-Tuned
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:11 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:29 pm ... although no inversion has a 3rd in the top of the triad and a high root above it all ...
Would this do? Just use the TAB as is. On your guitar it's | D7 / Gmaj7 / | or | !£$%^ / £$%& / |

Image
My understanding is that an inversion is essentially a triad
switcharoo, moving a triad 3rd or 5th to the bottom below
the triad root, but leaving the other 2 triad notes untouched.
There being no such thing as an inverted chord, no inversion
per-se includes any note above or even outside the
triad itself inside the chord.
D7⁋3×1_0600-100pix.png
D7⁋3×1_0600-100pix.png (31.66 KiB) Viewed 529 times
The bottom of the cited (above & reduced scale) chord is NOT
an inversion because the triad 5th (gold) has been dropped
to the middle of the triad and not to its bottom, a twist that my
⁋3 can handle. This DOES give an uninverted triad with a 3rd
(black) as its new top but the extra root note (red ×1 with a white
center) is not "in the top of the triad" but in the top of the chord,
the triad including only 3 notes. That's what I meant ..I think.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by Loki Harfagr »

Woosh, and now I'm sad, most of the western XVIIIth, XIXth and a good part of XXth music just vanished in a flubberflappingfoil :-(
I hear the news from every land are DG catalogs are burning, riots in the churches, panics at schools, every place holding an organ or a keyboard or a trio, quartet or octuor are in tears, I feel now too shocked to even dare pushing thru the market square see if I see any mother sighing...
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

hey, a seventh chord is not a triad -- it's a tetrad
The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that we make it, and could just as easily make it differently.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:01 pm hey, a seventh chord is not a triad -- it's a tetrad
I didn't say it was
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:54 pm
There being no such thing as an inverted chord ...
Where on earth did you get that idea? How can you think a triad is not a chord?
... no inversion per-se includes any note above or even outside the
triad itself inside the chord.
When you say "the triad" you mean the D triad. There are two triads in a D7 chord : D and F#dim.

D7 : D F# A C

Leave out the C and we have a D triad : D F# A

Leave out the D and we have an F#dim triad : F# A C
The bottom of the cited (above & reduced scale) chord is NOT
an inversion because the triad 5th (gold) has been dropped
to the middle of the triad and not to its bottom, a twist that my
⁋3 can handle. This DOES give an uninverted triad with a 3rd
(black) as its new top but the extra root note (red ×1 with a white
center) is not "in the top of the triad" but in the top of the chord,
the triad including only 3 notes. That's what I meant ..I think.
You haven't got the concept of a voicing.
The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that we make it, and could just as easily make it differently.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:44 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:54 pm There being no such thing as an inverted chord ...
Where on earth did you get that idea? How can you think a triad is not a chord?
OK, the inversion of chords does exist, I had only read up on triad inversions where the triad note that moves to the bottom defines that triad inversion. So when I said that "no inversion per-se" I meant no triad inversion. The reference chord is a D major chord consisting of a D major triad to which is THEN added a 7th making it a D7

You haven't got the concept of a voicing.
Only the very basic notion. In the reference diagram let's leave out the top 2 notes, the base triad's 5th and root. What I end up with is that base D triad (D F# A) and, as you suggest, a 2nd inversion of the D7 triad (F# A C) become (C F# A). Fine, how am I to cannibalize all that into the filename? And then how do I include meaningfully in the same filename at least the additional fact of the highest note? The two chords (with and without the mentioned two top notes) sound different but would normally have the same name as D7. If they sound different then methinks they REQUIRE two unique unique filenames as well as diagrams. My use of a four digit numerical addendum fixes the root note string and fret number but that isn't enough, I want to be able to mentally create from the filename the exact same diagram before ever seeing it.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

You might think I'm being a stickler. That's not my intention. If you get the basics down the rest is easier.
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:06 pm OK, the inversion of chords does exist, I had only read up on triad inversions where the triad note that moves to the bottom defines that triad inversion.
Why do you want inversions to go down? If we take them in order : root, 1st, 2nd they go up.
... a 2nd inversion of the D7 triad (F# A C) become (C F# A).
A closed voiced 2nd inversion D7 is A C D F#.
Fine, how am I to cannibalize all that into the filename?
In my head this is 'bog standard D7' (E7 on a guitar tuned to E)

Image

The doodads and watchamacallits are redundant -- you've already got all the notes in the diagram and they're colour coded -- why put that in the name of the chord aswell? This is twelve chords as it can be moved up the neck. You only have to memorise this shape and the notes on the D (E) string.

To turn a diagram into text I would be inclined to use something like this : D7-D-A-F#-C-A-D. (From the top down). There only is one place that can be played.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:53 pm You might think I'm being a stickler. That's not my intention. If you get the basics down the rest is easier.
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:06 pm OK, the inversion of chords does exist, I had only read up on triad inversions where the triad note that moves to the bottom defines that triad inversion.
Why do you want inversions to go down? If we take them in order : root, 1st, 2nd they go up.

Triad inversions are defined according to the triad note i.e.
3rd or 5th that goes to the bottom instead of the root. I
don't know why this was decided so, maybe it was to be in
line with the baseline mentality of the slash chord symbology.
I really don't care which end they define on, so long as I don't
run the even remote risk of a duplicate filename.

Most of music theory issued I guess from a piano, organ
i.e. keyboard environment. So it makes little difference
if a triad order is 1-3-5 or 3-1-5 but it makes a lot of difference
on a strummed string instrument. Not only that, but the
order of 3-5-1 isn't even provided for in triad inversions
as far as I know (it's neither a 1st nor a 2nd triad inversion).
Image

The doodads and watchamacallits are redundant -- you've already got all the notes in the diagram and they're colour coded -- why put that in the name of the chord aswell? This is twelve chords as it can be moved up the neck. You only have to memorise this shape and the notes on the D (E) string.
I don't care about the name of the chord as such, it's the uniqueness of the filename that is prerequisite in my project. The filename is the filename, the diagram is the diagram, they reinforce each other in parallel. Over 80% of brain power lies in the subconscious and musicians well know this. The idea of the video is to force familiarity through repetition rather than through blind cramming, creating all manner of subconscious associations between the fretboard image, the staff, the approximate slider shape transition frets (from the matrix diagram), the literal and most importantly the aural content of every one of the 16 second clips. By the time I will have jammed through this 100-200 times I will know my fretboard, the chords, their staff notation, the shapes, the exact root string and fret, as well as the sound and mood of the main qualifications. Not only that, but even as a student by my third or fourth run I was tempted to and managed a few fast excursions into alternate voicings of the more familiar easy chords, all of this without a single second wasted on those shapes that I will never be able to finger anyway. THIS is what I created the aids for, now just about complete and very much to my satisfaction.
To turn a diagram into text I would be inclined to use something like this : D7-D-A-F#-C-A-D. (From the top down). There only is one place that can be played.
That would work too, as would some tab-like representation, or for that matter a humanly no more readable binary sequence. Your D7-D-A-F#-C-A-D may be a piece of cake to an expert musician but this project is about learning. Once learned, the video, diagrams and staff go into the bin as they should :D
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

I agree that you've done enough theory and it's time for some playing. :D
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:32 pm Not only that, but the
order of 3-5-1 isn't even provided for in triad inversions
as far as I know (it's neither a 1st nor a 2nd triad inversion).
3-5-1 (from the top down) is an open triad. It's derived from a closed voiced 2nd inversion.

Image

It's open because there are holes in the voicing where the C has been moved down an octave.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:11 pm I agree that you've done enough theory and it's time for some playing. :D
D-Tuned wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:32 pm Not only that, but the
order of 3-5-1 isn't even provided for in triad inversions
as far as I know (it's neither a 1st nor a 2nd triad inversion).
3-5-1 (from the top down) is an open triad. It's derived from a closed voiced 2nd inversion.

Image

It's open because there are holes in the voicing where the C has been moved down an octave.
yes, but i wrote 3-5-1 from the bottom up, if you want to read top down then it's 1-5-3 which is neither an inversion nor the triad's 1-3-5 ..so where do we ship that one back to? :D
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:38 pm yes, but i wrote 3-5-1 from the bottom up ...
When you make a boo-boo you're awful quick to blame music theory. 3 5 1 is a first inversion.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:00 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:38 pm yes, but i wrote 3-5-1 from the bottom up ...
When you make a boo-boo you're awful quick to blame music theory. 3 5 1 is a first inversion.
I don't make boo-boos, I make fubars and I'm proud of
those too, like of everything else I ever did :)

unless I missed something:
135 is the triad
315 the 1st inversion
513 the 2nd inversion

351 isn't one of those (unless you open them up)

as far as I can tell on a strummed instrument that's
another animal, so back to the chicken and egg
bit: which came first, the strings or the keyboards?
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

I suspect there is less to inversions than you think there is. Take this chord :

Image

It's a closed voiced C and it contains all the inversions. Keeping the chord fingered play the lowest three strings :

Image

and it's a root position triad -- from the bottom up 1 3 5. Still keeping the chord fingered play the next three strings :

Image

and it's a first inversion 3 5 1. Keep the chord fingered and play the next three strings :

Image

and it's a second inversion 5 1 3. There is no combination of 1, 3 and 5 that isn't something.
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm I suspect there is less to inversions than you think there is. Take this chord :

Image

It's a closed voiced C and it contains all the inversions. Keeping the chord fingered play the lowest three strings :

Image

and it's a root position triad -- from the bottom up 1 3 5. Still keeping the chord fingered play the next three strings :

Image

and it's a first inversion 3 5 1. Keep the chord fingered and play the next three strings :

Image

and it's a second inversion 5 1 3. There is no combination of 1, 3 and 5 that isn't something.
When I first read about inversions (first impressions last!), I understood the definition to mean that in a 1st inversion the 3rd moves to bottom (middle E moves to bottom), whereas your interpretation (maybe the correct one) says that the 1st moves to top (low C moves to the top). A low E is the end result in both cases unless I messed this up too.
inversions-mine.png
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Re: RFC: Chords, guitar diagrams, and digital file-names.

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:06 pm When I first read about inversions (first impressions last!), I understood the definition to mean that in a 1st inversion the 3rd moves to bottom (middle E moves to bottom), whereas your interpretation (maybe the correct one) says that the 1st moves to top (low C moves to the top). A low E is the end result in both cases unless I messed this up too.
It's not completely wrong, just a less understandable way of doing it. So the first chord -- easy enough, C root position. The second chord is an open triad. Open triads sound good. Try this :

Image

Approaching inversions as taking the note from the bottom and putting it on the top produces closed voicings and the inversions in order. It's more logical.
The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that we make it, and could just as easily make it differently.
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