Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

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42low
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 am

glowrak guy wrote:You've got a fine guitar setup going, very well thought out
and then nicely implemented. Must be great fun to push
the envelopes, even before getting in the box!

Thanks for the compliment.
I'm glad too with all the options i have. Must confess that most is thanks to my mixer board with it's very extended options which provides all kinds of instrument connections you can think off and different kinds off outs. My studio gear and all it's possibilities is build around that mixer board.

glowrak guy wrote:I have a somewhat opposite experience, using Fender
usb amps that each output stereo signals, and I don't
have any hardware mics to use.

That's a style i did a while to, and still do sometimes.
I have no special amp for that like you do, but i then plug my amp into the mixer board which goes too the computer. This way i can use all amp options steared richt into the computer. Slightly different way to connect, but at the end the same workflow.

I've experienced the benefits to the sound when micing. I suggest everyone to at least try it once, to experience it, to know the options and there benefits that are there to choose. It's clear now that i prefer mic recording.
But if your on a small bedroom or small rumorous house (with neighbours) your still better off without mic recording. Nothing wrong with that.

Still record plugged in sometimes though. Lately i wanted to record a bass guitar. But i lack a bass amp. And bass over normal guitar amp can be bad for the speakers which aren't build for bass.
But not bad for it's build in amplifier. :wink: So i dodged the speaker to not blow it, and plugged in with nice quality recording of that bass guitar. :mrgreen:

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:34 pm

Another question:

Does someone know if there are fun trick for micing a 2x12 cab?
Is there a way with mic positioning to profit from the 2 speakers?

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tavasti » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:43 pm

tavasti wrote:Bit of googling and reading, most di-boxes have 2 outputs, one for guitar effects / amps, and one for mixer / audio interface. So price range starts from this? https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die ... passiv.htm

I've been searching with wrong term, searched 'guitar signal splitter' :-o

Got second hand Behringer DI20, and sounds like it will handle this need. No recordings yet, but sounds promising!

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... x-splitter
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:41 pm

42low wrote:Another question:

Does someone know if there are fun trick for micing a 2x12 cab?
Is there a way with mic positioning to profit from the 2 speakers?


Mic them with different mics and then pan them. Maybe one mic in the middle of the cone and another on the rim, then have fun panning them, should give some 3d aspect. Even add one further away in the front, and another in the back. Or get creative and lets say add a plastic tube in front of one speaker with the mic at the other end, or put it on the side of a wall and record the reflections. Try really weird things, it might suck, but it might also rock!

Stick your amp in your bathroom and use a mic in the living room to record delay/reverb.

Probably would be a good thing to align the waveforms in the daw afterwards, but also the changes in sound from the phasing/delay might be cool! :)
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:08 pm

Jack Winter wrote:Stick your amp in your bathroom and use a mic in the living room to record delay/reverb.


Something similar was even done in one Jimi Hendrix record (don't remember which one). They set up his rig in one studio, set all gains and volumes to full whack, recorded in the studio next to it.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Jack Winter wrote:
42low wrote:Another question:

Does someone know if there are fun trick for micing a 2x12 cab?
Is there a way with mic positioning to profit from the 2 speakers?


Mic them with different mics and then pan them. Maybe one mic in the middle of the cone and another on the rim, then have fun panning them, should give some 3d aspect. Even add one further away in the front, and another in the back.


That tricks i know.
My question is more about the two speakers. If i mic one (no matter how) i instantly have the sound of the second slightly further away speaker.
Now my question is if there are some fun tricks, to get and control "more effect" with that second speaker (for instance warmer sound or whatever).
Last edited by 42low on Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:31 pm

CrocoDuck wrote:
Jack Winter wrote:Stick your amp in your bathroom and use a mic in the living room to record delay/reverb.


Something similar was even done in one Jimi Hendrix record (don't remember which one). They set up his rig in one studio, set all gains and volumes to full whack, recorded in the studio next to it.


Yeah. There were even famous studios which had a reserved hallway for that with a mic at the end.
And other which had special (high) rooms for it.
But don't you think they then would do that difficult if they only had to turn a knob like we can nowadays?

Btw, my studio is 24x18ft. and i can't confiscate the rest of the house as my family also has to live and sleep somewere. :mrgreen:
I'm happy already with this size. 8)

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tavasti » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:35 pm

42low wrote:Btw, my studio is 24x18ft. and i can't confiscate the rest of the house as my family also has to live and sleep somewere. :mrgreen:
I'm happy already with this size. 8)

Huge compared to mine :-) I have 2x2m space for everything music related, and that includes big desk with computers & displays.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:22 pm

42low wrote:My question is more about the two speakers. If i mic one (no matter how) i instantly have the sound of the second slightly further away speaker.
Now my question is if there are some fun tricks, to get and control "more effect" with that second speaker (for instance warmer sound or whatever).


Not sure I understand? First of all the 2 speakers will sound slightly different which is already a good start. By using different mics you can get different sounds. When micing the guitar cab, normally you get the most mellow sound at the rim, and moving towards the centre of the cone it gets more harsh. Placing the mic closer gives more proximity effect (more bass) when using cardoid mics. You can also change the frequency response of the mic, by varying how on/off axis it is. A mic behind the amp will be lacking a lot of the highend and sounds very warm.

Also play with positioning the amp along a wall with a mic further away, or put it placed with the back against the wall, free standing, etc, etc.

When mixing you can play with the polarity switch, or delay one channel so you get phase differences between the signals, or delay one channel say a dotted 16th and pan it on the other side, etc, etc :)

I often record 4 mics and pan them to a bus, then I pan the bus and change width on it.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:42 pm

tavasti wrote:Huge compared to mine :-) I have 2x2m space for everything music related, and that includes big desk with computers & displays.

I know. My desk(s) alone are 2,5x2m together. :D Sorry for that. :?
Need to say that it's a shared space. There's more stuff like boxes and laundry and so (great for acoustic regulation and as false-sounds-trap). My working space is about half of the room, but for the sound/headroom the whole room is in action.

Jack Winter wrote:Not sure I understand? First of all the 2 speakers...

I think you understand it well. It has 2 12" speakers in it next to each other.

Jack Winter wrote:First of all the 2 speakers will sound slightly different which is already a good start.

For sure. As the two speakers, build in a bigger box, create a warmer sound. That's a known aspect of 212 systems.

Jack Winter wrote:When micing the guitar cab, normally you get the most mellow sound at the rim, and moving towards the centre of the cone it gets more harsh. Placing the mic closer gives more proximity effect (more bass) when using cardoid mics. You can also change the frequency response of the mic, by varying how on/off axis it is. A mic behind the amp will be lacking a lot of the highend and sounds very warm.

I think this part i've been not clear enough. I know the principle of getting different sounds by differences in placement of the mic.

But now for the 2x12 (look at images below). This is what my question is about.
If i place the mic for the speaker[#1] the mic also catches the sound of the other speaker[#2] which is about 14 inch away from it.
The mic(s) will catch this aspect that i mentioned above. A warmer sound. IMO this is because the mic catches the hard sound from the speaker which it is in front off, but also the "distanced" warmer sound of the other speaker. You could also say that in this case one can catch the same sound with one mic as (what you explained) with 2 mics in front of one speaker (one close, one 14" further away).

So now my question. Is there a possibility to play with positioning mic(s) on different places in front of the two speakers? To get nicer and different sound effects? (exactly like you too discribed for one mic in front of one speaker, but then double)
I saw a lot about placing mic in front of one speaker, done it and experienced it in practice. But there's hardly anything to be found on placement on two speakers.
That's my question! Are there known tricks for that? On yt-vids? Or wherever? Will it compliment the recording if i place two mics in different places? And if so, how to place those, and for which sound results?

Some examples of 2x12" amps. (i guess now you can imagine that this is something different than 1 mic on 1 speaker :) )

Image Image
Image

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:03 pm

42low wrote:
Jack Winter wrote:First of all the 2 speakers will sound slightly different which is already a good start.

For sure. As the two speakers, build in a bigger box, create a warmer sound. That's a known aspect of 212 systems.


What I meant is that the 2 speakers will sound different to each other, not the fact that a 2x12 sounds different to a 1x12.

42low wrote:If i place the mic for the speaker[#1] the mic also catches the sound of the other speaker[#2] which is about 14 inch away from it.

So now my question. Is there a possibility to play with positioning mic(s) on different places in front of the two speakers? To get nicer and different sound effects? (exactly like you too discribed for one mic in front of one speaker, but then double)


I've never thought about this. Of course the sound recorded in front of one speaker will be coloured by the sound from the other one, but on the other hand there is precious little you can do about it :) And as long as the mics are real close to the cone then I think bleed will be minimal and mic position and angle will change the sound much more than anything coming from the other speaker.

Now if you move the mic away from the speaker you will get progressively more sound from the other speaker, but you are also losing the proximity effect and IME get a brighter sound.

Thus the reason that I mic the 2 cones differently and with different mics, then place one further out in front that gets both speakers with no prox effect, and another mic behind the cabinet.

In the end there aren't really that many tricks, but changing mic and mic position can change the sound quite a lot.

But in the end you have to experiment, maybe you come up with something really cool..! Maybe try to put the amp facing a wall and record the reflected sound, who knows maybe that will sound real nice too.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tramp » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:32 pm

Jack Winter wrote: Maybe try to put the amp facing a wall and record the reflected sound, who knows maybe that will sound real nice too


Or do something like that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzBFgwkU0A

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:46 pm

tramp wrote:Or do something like that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzBFgwkU0A


Wow, that's awesome!
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:02 am

Jack Winter wrote:What I meant is that the 2 speakers will sound different to each other, not the fact that a 2x12 sounds different to a 1x12.

I guess that the fact that a 212 sounds different you'll record that different sound, and thus perhaps different tricks can be done or are needed. That was why i got this question.

Jack Winter wrote:I've never thought about this.

Yeah, it could be very well possible that i'm asking for something that doesn't exist and isn't possible. Could be very well that i'm asking a totally non relevant question. :?
But even if that is the answer i would be glad with it.

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby 42low » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:09 am

Jack Winter wrote:
tramp wrote:Or do something like that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzBFgwkU0A


Wow, that's awesome!


Remind that a good reverb/echo room is not cubistic. It's highly technical to control the reverb/echo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvr-TRuOzqM

Here's an actual one in an active studio. Look at 3m37 (this link will start there).
https://youtu.be/YWesb1MaEMI?t=3m37s
Once in a documentary seen about a hall with mic at the end which was used by beatles or stones or whatever. Can't find it back on yt.


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