MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

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ssj71
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby ssj71 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:05 pm

I've been holding out commenting.
After some thought, I really think we need to clarify the terms we've agreed on with mod. I personally don't mind giving credit to some sponsors, though I would probably prefer they get credit somewhere without an image on every page. Ardour has had several sponsors and doesn't show logos of them.

In general I would say, lets keep in mind that we haven't sold the community to mod, they've just kindly offered to cover some expenses. We don't NEED them, so we have nothing to fear. If they are ok with how our community runs, and we are able to freely operate and they're happy to help financially, perfect. If they don't like how we discuss certain things (incl. but not limited to their company) then they can withdraw their sponsorship and we'll be fine. AFAICT we're in the best possible position right now. As long as we don't fear losing sponsors, then who cares whether we have them or not. I don't.

I propose we all move forward cautiously and wait until there's an effect on how our community can operate before we forsake the relationship.
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Luc
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Luc » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:09 pm

I swear, this thread is what it took me to realize that I never scroll down far enough to see the actual bottom of the page. The last comment and the breadcrumb navigator (when applicable) are two or three inches above the bottom. I always use the mouse scroll wheel and will click something before rock bottom ever comes into the portview.

I usually hate ads from the deepest depths of my liver, but that's because they have become insanely invasive. It's not the case here. The ad is barely noticeable, and the company is directly involved with Linux. We really need MORE of those, and when one of them wants to help, we treat them like that? No wonder it's so hard to find vendors who will support Linux.

Of course I have the utmost respect for falkTX, but I have to say, I am very surprised at his stance on this. I really don't see the harm.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby folderol » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:29 pm

I've been away for a while, and coming here now was utterly astonished to see the objections to this.

Maybe (probably) there are things I'm unaware of, but the icon seems neat and unoffensive, tucked in the bottom corner. MOD appear to be the most Linux friendly company I've come across, and they are the only one I've heard of so heavily invested in Linux with music.

x42
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby x42 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:52 pm

There was a similar dispute regarding linuxaudio.org years ago. Some community members wanted to introduce advertisements (to benefit linux audio) and it was voted against (back then it was not even an option since vt.edu policy prevented any advertisements or commercial endeavors).

I can perfectly understand falktx. A community site should be from the community, for the community. Once you start heading down the advertisement road there's no stopping that. Even more so MOD: They took so much from the linux-audio community and recently just run with it, even requiring NDAs to join their MOD-labs lately. Not a single LV2-extension was pioneered by them and I'm still waiting for any contribution from MOD that benefits the linux-audio community at large.

PS. If they were to quietly donate towards hosting that would be different compared to asking for advertisements and SEO links.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby tramp » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:50 am

x42 wrote:There was a similar dispute regarding linuxaudio.org years ago. Some community members wanted to introduce advertisements (to benefit linux audio) and it was voted against.


Well, things looking a bit different for the LAC pages, don't they? :wink:
https://lac.linuxaudio.org/2018/pages/contact/

So, it isn't a "general" advertisement like google addsense will do, but more a sign of a relation ship. We talk about giving credit to a sponsor.

x42 wrote:Even more so MOD: They took so much from the linux-audio community and recently just run with it, even requiring NDAs to join their MOD-labs lately. Not a single LV2-extension was pioneered by them and I'm still waiting for any contribution from MOD that benefits the linux-audio community at large.


mmm, I'm have as well ain't pioneered a single LV2-extension, should I fell useless for the linux audio community now?
I've developed some plugins a little host, a framework, that's it, like they've done.

Back to the point, the MOD company is the only commercial vendor I'm aware of, which promote Linux as audio processing base, and promote the use of Open Source as a company concept. That is, a bigger benefit for the Linux Audio, and the Open Source Community in my view, then I could ever reach by myself. I ain't understand what you mean by "waiting for any contribution from MOD".

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x42
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby x42 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:37 am

tramp wrote:
x42 wrote:There was a similar dispute regarding linuxaudio.org years ago. Some community members wanted to introduce advertisements (to benefit linux audio) and it was voted against.


Well, things looking a bit different for the LAC pages, don't they?


Indeed. In the past there used to be at least some mention that LAC was sponsoring was undertaken by the patron of the conference and unrelated to the community site. -- Thanks for the heads up, I'll ask the maintainer to clarify this situation.

tramp wrote:Back to the point, the MOD company is the only commercial vendor I'm aware of, which promote Linux as audio processing base, and promote the use of Open Source as a company concept.


Like your previous argumentation, this is again a strawman.

How is this related if you accept advertisement to run a community site or not.

This is not about MOD directly but if you want to promote a company that requires NDAs for hosting a free/libre community site.


Also your information is not correct. Back in 2006 there were 64studio, Lionstracs, Trinity all openly endorsing Linux. There have also been many vendors who have provided hardware and contributed drivers, fostering the Linux-Audio ecosystem at large. Heck even Apple pushing class-compliant USB-specs have done more for the average linux-pro-audio user than MOD.. perhaps we should get them to sponsor the site, next :evil:

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby bluebell » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:10 am

I'd like to add my 2 cents:

At least in Germany (and probably in Europe) placing one single ad on a website turns it legally into a commercial site. That opens up a bunch of nasty, costly attacks based on a zillion of laws.

I'd prefer a yearly "please donate"-thread.
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tramp
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby tramp » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:13 am

x42 wrote:How is this related if you accept advertisement to run a community site or not.


I just answer on your stance:
x42 wrote:Even more so MOD: They took so much from the linux-audio community and recently just run with it, even requiring NDAs to join their MOD-labs lately. Not a single LV2-extension was pioneered by them and I'm still waiting for any contribution from MOD that benefits the linux-audio community at large.


x42 wrote:Like your previous argumentation, this is again a strawman.


Well, my bad, I forget to mention that I mean currently successful.

However, we ain't necessary need to agree if sponsors may be welcome here, and "advertised" somehow on the site, or not.
I've maid my points, you maid yours and others do theirs.

I've no problem with what ever the decision is at least, just I hope that this issue ain't split the community, so it may be better to remove this agreement with the MOD, as I ain't here a voice here which would feel bad than, just in the opposite there are some strong feelings which I'll accept.

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hermann
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CrocoDuck
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby CrocoDuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:41 am

bluebell wrote:At least in Germany (and probably in Europe) placing one single ad on a website turns it legally into a commercial site.


That's something totally worth to keep in mind, especially in the context of the incoming EU copyright reform, which operates a distinction between commercial sites and not commercial sites.
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby raboof » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:08 am

I'm feeling pretty bad.

Not because the sponsorship is so important to me per se (though I still think it's a reasonable choice), but because of the lack of support/empathy.

People seem quick to judge, bicker, and tell me how I should do things differently. Not just in this thread, but others come to mind (parts of the "move to discourse" thread, (private) discussions on moderation decisions, the "wine subforum" thread, etc). It's pretty exhausting.

This has been getting me down for the last few days, I won't lie, and I have been considering various ways out: transfer admin to someone else, just 'rm -rf' the whole thing and be done with it, or moving on ignoring the bickering.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby sysrqer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:15 am

Well, I for one support this, I don't see anything wrong it at all. I'm not really interested in arguing about it with hardliners though.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby CrocoDuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:45 am

Maybe let's just leave it for a few days and think about it later with a relaxed mind. I don't think a decision has to be done in the next incoming mircoseconds really.

My point of view is: I have not really much against MOD sponsoring the site, + maybe it is possible to find a common ground with the opposing views.

@raboof: I just wanna say thank you for putting your work and effort in maintaining and moving the community forward. It must be requiring lots of time and effort, and I am pretty sure it would be rotten by now if I, for example, was in charge of it.
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Babarosa
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Babarosa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:22 am

I'm feeling pretty bad.


Please do not.
From my point of view you do not have to regret anything and do not let it get you down.

I send you heartwarming greetings from Salzburg, birthtown of Mozart!
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby merlyn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:56 pm

@raboof Well done in succeeding in your aim of ensuring the continued existence of this forum. There is no reason to feel bad. As you pointed out you made your intention clear in a series of posts about the costs of keeping this forum online. Any users who had strong opinions on sponsorship had the opportunity to raise objections then.

@falkTX Please don't go. Your posts here have helped me set up Linux for audio more than any other source. Is there a compromise that can be worked out?

I was thinking : "What exactly is the problem?"

Say, instead of the MOD devices logo in the lower right hand corner it was the Linux Foundation logo. Would that seem the same? I think not. The Linux Foundation logo would seem more like an endorsement than an advert.

So the problem is the encroachment of the commercial world into Linux audio. The world of profit, of shareholders and of advertising. Well, that is happening. Linux is growing into the commercial world with products like MOD Duo, and the commercial world is growing into Linux with Reaper, Bitwig and Harrison Mixbus.

falkTX you are in a position to shape and influence how these two worlds interact.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby magicalex » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:10 pm

raboof wrote:I'm feeling pretty bad.


I'm sorry to hear that. I can understand how disappointed you must be. Please don't 'rm -rf' the whole thing. Do whatever you think is the right thing to do.
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