Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

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SR
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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by SR »

What are you talking about? Nvidia competes against Intel and AMD on the hardware front.

What are you going to use Nvidia software with other than Nvidia hardware?

brummer

Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by brummer »

slowpick wrote:So where are AMD and Intel, and the other industry giants that are directly competing
AGAINST nvidia for those millions of linux customers? The entourage seeking free nVidia sourcecode
may indeed be vast, but I doubt they will be any more successful than random strangers.
To answer this question:
Intel, for example pay 7.2% of the cost for the Linux Kernel Development, followed by Samsung and IBM. And to complete this, Microsoft comes up for 1% of the cost.
https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/5 ... e-linux-32
Also AMD supported the Linux Kernel/driver development:
http://developer.amd.com/zones/opensour ... fault.aspx
slowpick wrote: Valuable source code is released to cooperating developers, for nVidias potential benefit.
Any nVidia source code release that is totally for public use, is either EOL, of marginal value,
or is a diversionary tactic. But go for it:

(408) 486-2000 and ask for the free stuff developer.
http://developer.nvidia.com/contact.

Industrial espionage, and deep reverse engineering, will be far more successful in actually
getting anything useful in an OS distribution.
You seems to believe that decompiling a binary is a hard task? Well, just do a google for "decompiler" to get a overview what is possible for a normal user, then try to imagine what possibility Industrial espionage have.
So, push out binarys wouldn’t help to protect you for Industrial espionage. But note please that the criminal energy under Linux Kernel/driver Developers is lower then low.
slowpick wrote: I admit have tried to get a restaurant to name the spices used in the sauces used for their
delicious kookaburra wings, and just get laughed at, or invited to take a walkabout,
and that is in a much smaller market range. :)
Wow, I'm wonder when you didn't find a argument like "my car, your car " any-more. All args like that only show how less you know about the IT branch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PJv11Cf ... re=related

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by slowpick »

brummer wrote: You seems to believe that decompiling a binary is a hard task? Well, just do a google for "decompiler" to get a overview what is possible for a normal user, then try to imagine what possibility Industrial espionage have.
Conversely, if its as easy as you claim, there is no need to beg for source code.

brummer

Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by brummer »

It's an impressive try to hide the "my car, your car" style like args behind a constructed condition, but sorry man, it didn't work. The result is the same. It again only shows your limited knowledge and it shows that you didn't read what others write. :wink:
Also using the vocable "beg" for a reasonable question isn't funny, nor did it help to hide your misunderstand of the situation.
It is already clear that you know close to nothing about how Open Source works, why developers work on Open Source, and why more and more Company’s use Open Source for there Commercial.
But what I really didn't understand is why you feel the need to try to discourage people witch try to improve the situation around Open Source, as you claim out you are a Linux user yourself?

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raboof
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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by raboof »

brummer wrote:you know close to nothing about how Open Source works, why developers work on Open Source, and why more and more Company’s use Open Source for there Commercial.
Please let's try and keep the ad hominem's to a minimum... actually I think the argument that you can't claim "we really need to get the source code to these drivers to be able to properly support the hardware" and "releasing the source code to these drivers does not expose intellectual property because binaries are easy to decompile anyway" at the same time is quite reasonable.

Of course things are a bit more subtle: it will be easier for Intel to hire some 'cracker types' who are experienced with such tools, while the bona fide open source developers are used to having access to source code so they often don't develop these kinds of skills.
But what I really didn't understand is why you feel the need to try to discourage people witch try to improve the situation around Open Source, as you claim out you are a Linux user yourself?
This is a valid point: even though you might think it has little chance of success, what's wrong with someone giving it a try? To be quite honest I didn't expect much response from Nvidia either, and he's already having more "success" than I expected - by getting any answer at all :). No need to discourage this.

brummer

Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by brummer »

raboof wrote:Please let's try and keep the ad hominem's to a minimum... actually I think the argument that you can't claim "we really need to get the source code to these drivers to be able to properly support the hardware" and "releasing the source code to these drivers does not expose intellectual property because binaries are easy to decompile anyway" at the same time is quite reasonable.
Of course things are a bit more subtle: it will be easier for Intel to hire some 'cracker types' who are experienced with such tools, while the bona fide open source developers are used to having access to source code so they often don't develop these kinds of skills.
It is completely irrelevant for the Open Source Driver development how easy it is to decompile a binary, because it is illegal to use source you receive this way. More over, it is illegal to use the knowledge you get out of it.
As I already pointed out, there isn't any criminal energy behind Linux Kernel/driver development. In the word width industrial market, that could be a bit different. :wink:
That's why I wrote
brummer wrote:It is already clear that you know close to nothing about how Open Source works, why developers work on Open Source, and why more and more Company’s use Open Source for there Commercial.

And this, isn't in any way insulting, he claim already out in other threads that he have no interest in Open Source, or why and how develop it. So what, it is his good right to do so, and in no way insulting.
Million people using Open Source Software without any knowledge about it, more over, most of them didn't know that they use Open Source, for example in TV's, Phones, Servers, etc.
As more the question comes in mind why he feel the need to discourage them, who try to improve things,

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raboof
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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by raboof »

brummer wrote:
raboof wrote:I think the argument that you can't claim "we really need to get the source code to these drivers to be able to properly support the hardware" and "releasing the source code to these drivers does not expose intellectual property because binaries are easy to decompile anyway" at the same time is quite reasonable.
It is completely irrelevant for the Open Source Driver development how easy it is to decompile a binary, because it is illegal to use source you receive this way. More over, it is illegal to use the knowledge you get out of it.
That's an interesting point. Most laws that make reverse-engineering illegal actually have clauses that are meant to make an exception for reverse-engineering to achieve interoperability (which seems to be the case here), even the DMCA ( http://chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi#QID209 ). I'm not sure how effective these clauses are though.
brummer wrote:I wrote
brummer wrote:It is already clear that you know close to nothing about how Open Source works, why developers work on Open Source, and why more and more Company’s use Open Source for there Commercial.

And this, isn't in any way insulting, he claim already out in other threads that he have no interest in Open Source, or why and how develop it. So what, it is his good right to do so, and in no way insulting.
Regardless of whether it was insulting (it did look that way to me as a casual observer), it's an ad hominem argument that muddies an otherwise interesting discussion. I'd have more fun reading this thread without it. If someone 'knows close to nothing', by all means educate him and point out misconceptions - but just pointing out 'you know close to nothing' isn't productive imho.

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by autostatic »

Recently I saw an item on television about VDL and their department that builds machines for ASML. "Aren't you afraid the Chinese will copy these machines and take you out of business?" the interviewer asked. The answer of the CEO said it all: "They can do whatever they want, they can buy the machines and try to copy them but before they are where we are now we're five years ahead and by that time we'll have better machines."
That strengthens my belief that it's all about innovation. If you don't innovate your market share will decline (Sony anyone?). And imo open source is part of that innovation and patents and intellectual property are not. This is also the reason I think for the weird coexistence of open source related projects and patent wars in big companies like Apple, Microsoft and nVidia. We're in a transitional phase. Innovation, durability and cooperation are the future so I think in the future open source will play a bigger role in the world's economy.

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by slowpick »

brummer wrote:It's an impressive try to hide the "my car, your car" style like args behind a constructed condition, but sorry man, it didn't work. The result is the same. It again only shows your limited knowledge and it shows that you didn't read what others write. :wink:
Also using the vocable "beg" for a reasonable question isn't funny, nor did it help to hide your misunderstand of the situation.
It is already clear that you know close to nothing about how Open Source works, why developers work on Open Source, and why more and more Company’s use Open Source for there Commercial.
But what I really didn't understand is why you feel the need to try to discourage people witch try to improve the situation around Open Source, as you claim out you are a Linux user yourself?
In warkus OP, he admits calling nVidia 'weak', and with a snickering smiley, so it's clear the intent
of his question was provocative, not 'reasonable'. And also using 'why don't you', instead of 'will you please', implies some wrong-doing on nVidias part, rather than just asking them politely, without the agenda.

These subtle insults are remembered by heads of successful businesses, and the linux community looses credibility, every time these ridiculous code ownership issues are brought up.

The technologies to which nVidia have opened their sourcecode, are all dead-end. Audio quality
is beyond the ears ability to discern, internet speeds allow live movie streaming, 2D graphics
are maxed out in the consumer market. The NEW MONEY is made in 3D, and new hardware
technologies, that do have a future, and future profits. nVidia will not release pertinent code for these, until it is fiscally responsible to do so. They bare obligation to investors, shareholders, customers, and employees.

Those who do not respect such obligations, damage the linux community
as a whole. You want linux to be respected in the general computing
public? Then join the business community, and succeed. The talent is there.

My support for, and use of linux, is based in reality. If the real world is
just too scary, there is always some 'Occupy' movement looking for marchers.
Those demanding handouts, and wealth redistribution, good luck. Spain is calling.
Greece is calling. Hope your mommy doesn't make you pay rent.

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by slowpick »

AutoStatic wrote:If you don't innovate your market share will decline (Sony anyone?). And imo open source is part of that innovation and patents and intellectual property are not. .
Innovation and competition, have direct relationships to ownership. Removing
ownership, limits motivation, which in turn, diminishes competition,
and then innovation suffers, and you inherit a collapsing soviet union, or
an internet full of thieving downloaders, instead of paying customers fueling
a vibrant media economy.

A business exists to make a profit for the owner, and careers for
the owners employees. Ownership sets out the boundaries which repel
chaos and anarchy. Owners create jobs, hire workers, and expect to be
rewarded for the risk and investment they make. You work for an owner,
I work for an owner. Chaos and anarchy don't sign our paychecks.

While patents, intellectual property and other owner protections, are not perfected,
society exists where they are strong, while tyranny and apathy grow where they are weak.
The food in the grocery, the electricity in the outlet, the media in our
player, all exist, because someone worked to make it available, and sell it at a price.

I began my linux experience, buying boxed versions of Caldera, Suse, Mandriva,
Corel, and Redhat. 3g/4g downloads were fantasies back then. But there are people
now who have never needed to pay, to experience linux. Or mp3, or dvd. Will they respect
ownership, when times are hard? I have my doubts. It is not respected,
even when times are good.

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by autostatic »

slowpick wrote:They bare obligation to investors, shareholders, customers, and employees.
In that particular order? If so then I dare to say that is going to change in the exact opposite order and without the shareholders because the employees will become the new shareholders. That's where the new money will be made.
slowpick wrote:Those who do not respect such obligations, damage the linux community
as a whole.
In that case I think investors and shareholders do more damage than employees and customers.
slowpick wrote:You want linux to be respected in the general computing
public? Then join the business community, and succeed. The talent is there.
Couldn't agree more. And it's happening and we're in the middle of it.
slowpick wrote:If the real world is
just too scary, there is always some 'Occupy' movement looking for marchers.
Those demanding handouts, and wealth redistribution, good luck. Spain is calling.
Greece is calling. Hope your mommy doesn't make you pay rent.
What do the Occupy movement and the EU crisis have to do with the OP? Why depict the Occupy movement as some religious zealots trying to find relief in socialist standpoints? And you're aware that investors and shareholders respecting their obligations are a key cause of the current situation in Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland?
slowpick wrote:Innovation and competition, have direct relationships to ownership.
True but the ownership is currently in the wrong hands.
slowpick wrote:Removing ownership, limits motivation, which in turn, diminishes competition,
and then innovation suffers, and you inherit a collapsing soviet union, or
an internet full of thieving downloaders, instead of paying customers fueling
a vibrant media economy.
Open sourcing a driver doesn't mean you remove ownership, you move it to the other end of the chain, the customers. And the Linux community is the living proof of what happens then. Within that community innovation doesn't suffer, competition doesn't diminish and it doesn't limit motivation. And what you call thieving downloaders I call a sign of the times. A sign that record companies, publishers, movie companies etc. should change the way they perceive the internet and that they should come up with new ways to make money out of that internet full of thiefs. Because why are they there? Why not "join the business community, and succeed."?
slowpick wrote:A business exists to make a profit for the owner, and careers for
the owners employees.
A business should exist to make good products, not a lot of money.
slowpick wrote:Ownership sets out the boundaries which repel
chaos and anarchy.
I think companies like Canonical or Digium will wholeheartedly disagree.
slowpick wrote:Owners create jobs, hire workers, and expect to be
rewarded for the risk and investment they make. You work for an owner,
I work for an owner.
True. They should be rewarded though for making a good product, not for the personal risk they took and the investments they made. As a customer or employee I'm not in the least interested in those things. It's not self-evident anymore that customers or employees should take those things for granted.
slowpick wrote:Will they respect
ownership, when times are hard? I have my doubts. It is not respected,
even when times are good.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? Is it a bad thing when people get fed up because they can't play Happy Birthday on their amateur radio station without having to pay royalties to Disney who took ownership of this evergreen that used to be in the public domain? Is it a bad thing when people go to a streaming service and can't play or download any Coldplay songs? Do they have to buy those in a physical store then and rip the CD themselves so they can listen to it on their home network? Where is the respect of Coldplay for their fans in all this? Why don't they offer a more convenient way to get access to their music so fans don't have to resort to possible illegal actions? Why don't they rely on the fact they have a very good product that sells enormously well (did you know Coldplay charges €1.500.000 for a gig at a festival?), why do they insist on the ownership of their music? Why not free the music and be able to charge even more for your gigs because of the goodwill you've created among your fans? Just some random thoughts, I'm not even sure if Coldplay is a good example ;)

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by SR »

slowpick wrote:These subtle insults are remembered by heads of successful businesses, and the linux community looses credibility, every time these ridiculous code ownership issues are brought up.
slowpick wrote:If the real world is just too scary, there is always some 'Occupy' movement looking for marchers. Those demanding handouts, and wealth redistribution, good luck. Spain is calling. Greece is calling. Hope your mommy doesn't make you pay rent.
Pot meet kettle.

Believe it or not there are companies which provide driver source code. Do you believe they care any less about their intellectual property than Nvidia?

Nvidia may have a good product right now but making it difficult to access will make fewer of their customers think twice about switching to something else when a viable competitor surfaces.

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by raboof »

slowpick wrote:there are people now who have never needed to pay, to experience linux. Or mp3, or dvd. Will they respect ownership, when times are hard? I have my doubts. It is not respected, even when times are good.
I agree there are a lot of people who don't respect intellectual property. Though I may be misreading you, you appear to imply that the 'linux world' has more of these people than the 'windows world' (excuse the oversimplification). If this is indeed what you mean, I must disagree. In my experience the 'linux world' is very big on respecting others' rights. Yes, we want things to be free, but not because we're freeloaders: if something is not freely available, instead of 'pirating' it, we go to great lengths to either convince the owner to open up, or to provide an open alternative ourselves.

In my experience part of the reason the 'windows world' doesn't care that software is so expensive software is because if it's convenient they'll happily take it without paying anyway. Linux folks seem to be *more* respectful in this regard (and either buy it or, perhaps more likely, respectfully ignore the expensive software :) )

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by raboof »

AutoStatic wrote:what you call thieving downloaders I call a sign of the times. A sign that record companies, publishers, movie companies etc. should change the way they perceive the internet and that they should come up with new ways to make money out of that internet full of thiefs. Because why are they there? Why not "join the business community, and succeed."?
I agree record companies, publishers, movie companies etc should try moving into our century for a bit.

On the other hand, I disagree with some people who seem to take the fact that these companies are stuck in an outdated business model as an excuse to violate their intellectual property rights. I think it's not OK to download music at a large scale (even in the Netherlands where strictly speaking it's actually legal) without the owners' consent. Owners themselves will have to start realizing that allowing this can be in their best interest. We must wait for that, we cannot force them (other than by choosing to supporting those artists who do understand this).

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Re: Nvidia why they don't release 3D driver source

Post by Heavy Duty »

AutoStatic is right on this one. Downloading music should be free, and artists should get paid for concerts.

Go to Reverbnation, and see how many artists give all of their music for free. They want to get famous, downloading is like radio play for them.

Hollywood and record companies are nothing but leeches and culture vampires, and their so-called "copyrights" should never be respected.

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