Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

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milk
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Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by milk »

I'm troubled because nothing in my previous post about moderation on this forum has been responded to.

To about sum it up; I'm afraid that people might not want to stick around LM because a lack of proactive moderation. If moderators have no time to proactively engage, then it is upon them, in my opinion, to find new moderators. Currently there feels like too much of a laissez-faire approach to a signal-to-noise problem (excepting the blunt removal of a post).
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khz
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by khz »

I find more moderators useful.
I only activate new users (first 5 posts) and remove spam.
I stay out of discussions because my english skills (and technical knowledge) are rather poor - I also have a different language style - and therefore I might misunderstand a lot of things. Since I still have a real life I - and maybe others as well - am not 24/7 on LM.
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by tavasti »

I hope that we aren't getting moderation in the spirit whole world seem to be going. Current movement is getting insane and too much is sensored.
Linux veteran & Novice musician

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raboof
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by raboof »

milk wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:22 pm
I'm troubled because nothing in my previous post about moderation on this forum has been responded to.
Sorry about that - I did see that post but didn't realize you wanted a reply ;).
milk wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:22 pm
I'm afraid that people might not want to stick around LM because a lack of proactive moderation.
That would of course be sad. Unfortunately, though, it is impossible please everyone: moderation decisions are often judgement calls, and any course of action is likely seen by some as too strict, by some as not strict enough, and often both.

I agree with your earlier post that it is helpful to not just delete content, but also discuss what it and isn't considered acceptable here, to help set expectations and norms. On the other hand, if a thread doesn't get back on track despite warning, sometimes just deleting it and starting over can be the right thing to do.
milk wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:22 pm
If moderators have no time to proactively engage, then it is upon them, in my opinion, to find new moderators.
I don't think we have a lack of manpower right now. That does not mean we read every single post, and I think that is ok: the forum has a 'report this post' button that you can use to call for moderator attention. On the whole I think this is fairly rarely used, and when it is we respond relatively quickly. So I think we're doing all-right in that regard. If you feel something has slipped through the cracks you're also welcome to reach out to me personally.
milk wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:22 pm
Currently there feels like too much of a laissez-faire approach to a signal-to-noise problem (excepting the blunt removal of a post).
Thanks for that feedback. As said, moderation decisions are judgement calls, and I typically no problems with threads drifting off from the original topic, as long as it's related to creating music on Linux. In the 'Backstage' forum there explicitly is some room for off-topic posts, though we should keep that within reasonable limits. For example, in retrospect I think we should have wrapped up the discussion in the thread titled 'COVID-19' earlier. As you probably noticed not everyone necessarily agrees: I got quite some harsh criticism when I noted it was time for that thread to wind down.

As said, feel free to use the 'Report this post' functionality if you want to call moderation attention to any particular post, I'm happy to look into them and discuss how to proceed.

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turbidh20
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by turbidh20 »

I don't see how anyone can moderate "proactively". This implies knowing what's going to be written in advance!

Admittedly I don't read this forum extensively but I've yet to read anything I think should have been removed (I didn't see the deleted thread). I think the forum is moderated well. Unless there are any insults I certainly don't think censorship is the answer.

Criticism should never be censored.
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by Basslint »

I like this forum, there are a lot of good people and good feelings are often expressed. I've even made some friends. I think the best thing you can do is to report the offensive posts and leave the decision to keep them or not to the moderators, that's their role.
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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by lilith »

tavasti wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:53 am
I hope that we aren't getting moderation in the spirit whole world seem to be going. Current movement is getting insane and too much is sensored.
+1

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by merlyn »

tavasti wrote:Current movement is getting insane and too much is sensored.
Like what? I think a problem is that maniacs get to spout insane garbage with no comeback -- e.g. injecting disinfectant, anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers and outright untruths like £350 million on the side of a bus. :)

I'm not in favour of censorship. Not much appears to be censored though, when you have to fact check virtually everything and social media is awash with lies, propaganda, disinformation, spin and marketing.

As for the thread that was deleted -- it was incomprehensible to me and the more it went on the less I understood. Unfortunate, but I didn't miss it when it went. :)

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by tavasti »

merlyn wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:46 pm
tavasti wrote:Current movement is getting insane and too much is sensored.
Like what?
People lose their jobs for having an opinion. Citing a official statistics can cause you are banned from facebook. Criticize wrong religion, and you get banned. Etc. There is things were we have one truth like Orwells book.

Latest things, problem is that police is violent and killing people. I would suggest that fix is change police behaviour. No, too complicated. Instead, ban some words in software source code.
merlyn wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:46 pm
I think a problem is that maniacs get to spout insane garbage with no comeback -- e.g. injecting disinfectant, anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers and outright untruths like £350 million on the side of a bus. :)

I'm not in favour of censorship. Not much appears to be censored though, when you have to fact check virtually everything and social media is awash with lies, propaganda, disinformation, spin and marketing.

As for the thread that was deleted -- it was incomprehensible to me and the more it went on the less I understood. Unfortunate, but I didn't miss it when it went. :)
Garbage is not any problem to leftists, so therefore it can continue to be spread. Or ok, maybe some of them are, like that £350. Problem is real critics that can't be presented. Not to say that I would want to have such discussions here :-) But if this full madness with banned words, for example ban names of colors will be here, that will be bad.
Linux veteran & Novice musician

Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVrgGtrBmM
More my music https://audiu.net/users/tawaste

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by jonetsu »

raboof wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:54 am
For example, in retrospect I think we should have wrapped up the discussion in the thread titled 'COVID-19' earlier.
You might not be aware of this, but this is a humanity-changing happening. And it does not happen very often, to put it mildly. These are unique times the whole world is living, it is also a source of creativity for souls of all kinds.

It is not something that will be over by September or within a few months. It is not a concert, a football game, a TV series.

It involves the whole world.

As such having a thread in the misc section 'Backstage' that pertains to these events that will reshape humanity as we know it can be a useful thing.

A useful thing in the misc section of a board about collecting stamps, about trains, about auto mechanics, about philosophy, about anything. About music. About making music using Linux.

All of our lives will seemingly be reshaped. Some antiicipates the change with glee, already keeping their arms clean for the oncoming vaccines, others are pondering about the general mess the politics of every country are in since the very start, others are not sure. To have a thread about these events as they unfold. Some are stritcly following politics and mass medias, some are pondering about the mess the politics are in, some hold in contempt any different opinion in such a way that they can start to insult and become violent, some are questioning every aspect of what's happening. And all over there are people simply following like sleepwalkers, following either politics and mass medias' terrible hype, or following dissident voices still w/o asking questions and trying to find answers on their own, through their own research.

As you can see with the latest post in Backstage about the Linux Foundation and Master Card, Evernym, Sovrin, SSI, CCI and all, it is not possible anymore to please ourselves with the notion that a project is "community driven". It's community driven, so it's good. It's Linux and community driven, that's doublegood. What is the community actually ? A community of banks and financial institutions ?

And so, these events are nowhere near to be concluded soon. It's as serious as wanting a regime change in a far away country, the 'project' will not suddenly vanish.

And so, IMHO, as a reflection of the times that are unfolding, any type of message board should allow a misc thread where people can reflect and express opinion in a gentleman and polite way (not what we have seen late in the COVID-19 thread by the way).

Cheers.

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by jonetsu »

milk wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:22 pm
To about sum it up; I'm afraid that people might not want to stick around LM because a lack of proactive moderation.
"Proactive" as in "preemptive strikes" ? You look at me not the right way, I shut you down ? Why are you so afraid of polite exchanges that are expressing opinions you do not agree with ? If that's the case, that is. Sorry if it's not, although it sounds a tad like it would be.

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by English Guy »

This is one of the nicest and best groups I have been on. I have been here several years and have no intention of going anywhere.

I look at the things that intetest me and ignore the rest.. If you want to discuss breeding hamsters in the backstage section be my guest.

The one time I reported something (spamming from a fake profile) it was removed.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by folderol »

What EG said!
Reading posts is not compulsory :lol:

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by jonetsu »

English Guy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:09 am
This is one of the nicest and best groups I have been on. I have been here several years and have no intention of going anywhere.

I look at the things that intetest me and ignore the rest.. If you want to discuss breeding hamsters in the backstage section be my guest.

The one time I reported something (spamming from a fake profile) it was removed.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Indeed.

Hence the following stands out as being quite wild, so to say, as if it was a battlefield of some sort: "I'm afraid that people might not want to stick around LM because a lack of proactive moderation."

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Re: Moderation on linuxmusicians.com?

Post by bhilmers »

jonetsu wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:24 pm
Hence the following stands out as being quite wild, so to say, as if it was a battlefield of some sort: "I'm afraid that people might not want to stick around LM because a lack of proactive moderation."
But it is a battlefield. Surely you'll agree that we are all unwilling participants in a global information war where every media outlet and information sharing website, no matter how small, is being weaponized?

The rant below is not directed at any user and is a writing exercise for myself. Please indulge my one and only post in this thread before I unsubscribe from it. I would like to make the case for proactive moderation.

Old schools BB forums like this one were considered social media before everyone became addicted to push notifications on their phones. A forum is people and ideas, and we cannot separate it from society. However, forums are topical, and as such, often act as a valuable resource alongside official documentation. Forums are fantastic resources for support. Just look at how many threads exist here were we simply help each other as a community. Also, those interactions persist as a historical reference. I can search this forum and find helpful answers from many years ago. We can at least say the following about forums in general:
  • They are a valuable resource
  • They have a relatively narrow scope
  • They have helpful interactions
  • They are persistent
Linux Musicians is a forum with a mission statement, "to facilitate discussion, learning, and discovery of music making on the Linux platform." We all implicitly agree to this. (I'll come back to it later).

Here is my thesis: A forum's value is directly influenced by it's scope, helpfulness, and persistence. I am someone who believe that forums should be "atomic." Some of the best forums I've visited are heavily moderated to keep information focused, even to the point of moderators removing idle chatter in threads to keep it readable from start to finish. Perhaps you can relate to the experience of troubleshooting a problem and having to go through several pages of a thread because of all the verbal clutter? Moderation is key to building value because it removes items out of scope and leaves helpful information.

You might think, "sure, but a sub-forum for off-topic stuff is harmless." No, and I've seen this thing destroy communities if moderation is too lax.

While my experience is anecdotal, I can think of two forums where I directly witnessed the effects of successful, proactive moderation. On Forum A, they dedicated a sub-forum for anything political in nature and left it with almost no moderation at all. On Forum B, political discussions were allowed, but threads were quickly locked and bans issued when discussions became too heated. The effects of these moderation styles was clear.

Forum A almost completely dissolved. Political discussions led to community members not helping each other as frequently, or help only coming from political in-groups, or when help came from out-groups it would be brief, shallow, and interjected with passive-aggressive comments. It's frustrating and unpleasant to look for old content on that forum because a lot of mean stuff comes up in the results while searching even benign terms.

Forum B's heavy-handed approach caused a slight decrease in participation as some users decided to post on an alternative forum instead of the "official" one (the alt-forum eventually died). However, the bulk of the community survived and still has healthy, on-topic discussions. Moderation worked.

One argument I've seen in favor of hand's-off moderation is "individual responsibility". Users have agency and don't have to read off-topic threads. True, but that doesn't mean off-topic threads (especially controversial threads) don't have an effect on the community. Conflict damages the helpful interactions that add value to a forum. Off-topic discussions change a forum's scope and adds noise, which decreases value. This doesn't affect only forum users, but anyone using a search engine to find general help on a topic. Plus, off-topic threads can get out of control and dominate a forum, which has a depressing effect on a community. Some people like old BB-style forums because they don't care for modern social media sites with everyone yelling about nonsense. The more these forums look like Facebook, the worse it is for everyone.

Note: The above paragraph isn't against conflict. Here on LM we should definitely be arguing fiercely about why one GUI or API sucks over another. We should not be arguing about things unrelated to making music on Linux.

People don't live in isolation from their society and culture. Likewise, sub-forums don't exist in isolation, and neither do forum sites. We might want to answer the question of "proactive moderation" by asking ourselves "How can the Linux Musicians forum best facilitate learning, and discovery of music making on the Linux platform for years to come?"

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