Composing with a keyboard vs. sounding decent -- Feasible?

[piovezan]

Hi fellow Linux composers,

I had it coming all along -- you can create very interesting stuff with your computer and a basic keyboard for MIDI input, but they will only sound decent if you limit yourself to certain musical styles and instruments. Otherwise your music will suffer from that terrible 'karaoke player' effect, including the unnatural sounding non-keyboard-based instruments (lousy guitars, flutes, violin solos...), no matter how many soft synths you try and effects you add.

This is very well expected -- if I want to make them sound good, I have to record the original instruments. Does anyone think, though, that with reasonable effort it is possible/feasible to achieve decent sounding instruments under such a setup? Adjusting the note velocities manually can become a nightmare, unless I can get my sequencer (Qtractor) to see my pitch bend wheel as a mod wheel, just to mention the most visible obstacle.

Any advice for making things easier (or just giving up walking this rocky path to nowhere)?

[devilock76]

No saying a synth can always suffice for the real thing, but a lot of the problems I have encountered in keyboards replicating other instruments is the player. By that I mean the player may be an extraordinary piano player but doesn't understand a guitar, or a mandolin, or a flute. Not understanding them leads to creation of parts that are just not apropos for that instrument nor the choices the instrumentalist of that instrument would choose.

One of the advantages I gained from learning so many instruments was gaining a better understanding of how they work to synthesize the playing style. In effect that is what you must do, yes the synthesizer with synthesize the sound but one also needs to learn to synthesize the technique. Especially with expressive instruments like violin where hand technique and bow pressure and speed can greatly vary the sound use of controllers particularly aftertouch on a keyboard can make a big difference.

Just a tip. Might not get you all the way there but I have found that the right technique with a quality sampler and well programmed patches will get you closer than all but the most discerning ear could tell.

Ken

[Capoeira]

No saying a synth can always suffice for the real thing, but a lot of the problems I have encountered in keyboards replicating other instruments is the player. By that I mean the player may be an extraordinary piano player but doesn't understand a guitar, or a mandolin, or a flute.

yea, I'm trying to make a real guitar sound using "Realguitar", a VSTi. Realguitar is easy as pressing a key, in fact you can even play cords playing 1 key. That way you don't make cords that wouldn't be possible or unrealistic on a real guitar.
Even though it requires a lot of practicing and in my case, as I never played the guitar, a lot of hearing materials to get to know the teqniques and simply the way a real guitar sounds like

[piovezan]

Thanks a lot for your reply

the player may be an extraordinary piano player but doesn't understand a guitar, or a mandolin, or a flute. Not understanding them leads to creation of parts that are just not apropos for that instrument nor the choices the instrumentalist of that instrument would choose.

Yes, emulating instruments that a player is not used to can be a tricky job. But a critical player still can notice something is not right. Or are you talking about a player not even noticing that (not due to skill but because he's not used to how the instrument sounds)? I suppose the later is much less frequent, isn't it?

I believe that with a careful ear it is possible to figure out what takes to reproduce the basic feel of a given instrument. A flute line will never sound decent if you don't apply a single velocity change after key presses to make notes sound sharper or softer -- something a keyboard player is not used to (okay, at least one who doesn't work with aftertouch). But you can figure that out from listening to real flute sounds.

By ear and observation I think you can have a rather good grasp of most of the instrument dynamics (watching a long time friend accordionist comes to mind, with all that staccato and those velocity changes due to the windbag, just to name an example -- I simply know when an attempt to reproduce the accordion doesn't come out right).

Then again you mentioned the aftertouch, and even though my keyboard doesn't have that feature (and I don't have an expression pedal which might have done the trick), I'm keeping your tip in mind and have managed to improvise by remapping my pitch bend events to volume controller (#7 I think) with QMidiRoute, since I couldn't find any plugins to accomplish that over my soft synths. I think it is a good start. It is definitely much easier than manually applying velocity changes

Just a tip. Might not get you all the way there but I have found that the right technique with a quality sampler and well programmed patches will get you closer than all but the most discerning ear could tell.

So there is still hope, right? Glad to know that. Would you mind giving a specific example? (either a sampler + patch combination I can try, or a suggestion on how a patch to a given instrument should be programmed)?

Thanks!

[piovezan]

yea, I'm trying to make a real guitar sound using "Realguitar", a VSTi. Realguitar is easy as pressing a key, in fact you can even play cords playing 1 key. That way you don't make cords that wouldn't be possible or unrealistic on a real guitar.

I have been trying to find out what VST plugins could do and definitely need a few for Qtractor I'll be sure to include Realguitar if I find it And also it would be so cool if ZynAddSubFx would work with Qtractor (or is it actually the opposite?)...

[autostatic]

Just a tip. Might not get you all the way there but I have found that the right technique with a quality sampler and well programmed patches will get you closer than all but the most discerning ear could tell.

+1.
Usable samplers: LinuxSampler (SFZ and GIG), Qsynth (SoundFonts) and Fluidsynth-DSSI (SoundFonts).

[autostatic]

And also it would be so cool if ZynAddSubFx would work with Qtractor (or is it actually the opposite?)...

They should work together fine! Create a MIDI track in Qtractor, start up ZynAddSubFX (or Yoshimi), connect Qtractor:Master (under Output Ports) in the ALSA tab to ZynAddSubFX (Input Ports) and your keyboard that should be listed too to Qtractor:Master (Input Ports) and you should hear sound coming out of ZASFX. Now you can start recording your MIDI track in Qtractor and if you play it back it will output through ZASFX.

Best,

Jeremy

[Capoeira]

I'll be sure to include Realguitar if I find it

se precisar de um link mande PM

[piovezan]

Hey AutoStatic

They should work together fine! Create a MIDI track in Qtractor, start up ZynAddSubFX (or Yoshimi), connect Qtractor:Master (under Output Ports) in the ALSA tab to ZynAddSubFX (Input Ports) and your keyboard that should be listed too to Qtractor:Master (Input Ports) and you should hear sound coming out of ZASFX. Now you can start recording your MIDI track in Qtractor and if you play it back it will output through ZASFX.

Suddenly I get the whole point in using external synths such as Qsynth and ZynAddSubFX Linux Audio really takes the non-monolithic approach very seriously, doesn't it? I thought ZASFX would only be available to Qtractor via some plugin.

Well, since I'm at it, what is the best way to handle the connections? I bet there is a tool that saves and retrieves a previously set up connection status, right? Or perhaps I'm missing the right way to deal with them?

[autostatic]

Suddenly I get the whole point in using external synths such as Qsynth and ZynAddSubFX Linux Audio really takes the non-monolithic approach very seriously, doesn't it?

Yes! And JACK can be considered the core of the modular Linux audio approach.

I thought ZASFX would only be available to Qtractor via some plugin.

That's possible too, there is a ZASFX plug-in. But it lacks basically all the functionality ZASFX itself has, afaik the plug-in only allows to load instrument patches.

Well, since I'm at it, what is the best way to handle the connections? I bet there is a tool that saves and retrieves a previously set up connection status, right?

There are some tools, yes:

• LADISH: http://ladish.org/
• JACK Session: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThro ... ck_session
• There are some snapshot tools available that allow you to make a snapshot of all the current JACK connections
• Scripts

I'm using (Bash) scripts myself together with Qtractor. Qtractor saves all the connections to and from Qtractor within the project file so I only need to script the connections Qtractor doesn't or cannot make (JACK MIDI).

Best,

jeremy

[devilock76]

No saying a synth can always suffice for the real thing, but a lot of the problems I have encountered in keyboards replicating other instruments is the player. By that I mean the player may be an extraordinary piano player but doesn't understand a guitar, or a mandolin, or a flute.

yea, I'm trying to make a real guitar sound using "Realguitar", a VSTi. Realguitar is easy as pressing a key, in fact you can even play cords playing 1 key. That way you don't make cords that wouldn't be possible or unrealistic on a real guitar.
Even though it requires a lot of practicing and in my case, as I never played the guitar, a lot of hearing materials to get to know the teqniques and simply the way a real guitar sounds like

That is one thing I am thankful that I can play because guitar is very difficult to make happen from a keybed in a convincing manner, especially acoustic. One tip though that might help is roll your chords. A guitar is strummed so with the exception of finger pickers rarely are two strings ever plucked at exactly the same time. It seems like a minor thing but it is one of those subtle nuances to a guitar that we notice more than we realize.

Ken

[devilock76]

So there is still hope, right? Glad to know that. Would you mind giving a specific example? (either a sampler + patch combination I can try, or a suggestion on how a patch to a given instrument should be programmed)?

Thanks!

Well where there is a will there is a way. There are some great linux instruments out there. However if I had to choose the top way to make a convincing simulation of another non keyboard instrument then I would invest in some sample disks in GIG format for linux sampler. They will cost you but the production value put in on those is worth it, especially some of the orchestral selections.

For my purposes I have gotten the best results from a quality synth workstation. My present instrument for that duty is a Roland Fantom S. I think for many non keyboard instruments the factory patches are darn close and easy enough to tweak more on your own for just the right sound. Personally I also like Roland synths as vs their competitors I find live they cut through the mix very well for your rompler/sampler based workstation. However as far as their competitors I personally feel with the exception of the piano sounds the Motif line is top notch in their instrument patches. If I was to chose a keyboard for scoring work only the motif would be at the top of my list.

No dissing Korg, Just I don't find them tops in those two areas but still great workstations. Your ear may tell you different.

Now if you are not in the budget for one of those then in the used market look to Emu and Ensoniq or Kurzweill. The K series has great patches as did the later Ensoniq workstations. They will get you close.

Not to dis on soft synths, I love them and want to use them more but there is a level of responsiveness needed in duplicating some of these instruments that often dedicated hardware can do better unless your machine is spec'd to the gills.

My experience of course, yours may vary.

Also the age old cheat, if the instrument sounds to synthesized, bathe it in some effects. Ok kind of kidding there but it can bring a cold sound back into the mix nicely.

Ken

[piovezan]

Well where there is a will there is a way. There are some great linux instruments out there. However if I had to choose the top way to make a convincing simulation of another non keyboard instrument then I would invest in some sample disks in GIG format for linux sampler. They will cost you but the production value put in on those is worth it, especially some of the orchestral selections.

For my purposes I have gotten the best results from a quality synth workstation. My present instrument for that duty is a Roland Fantom S. I think for many non keyboard instruments the factory patches are darn close and easy enough to tweak more on your own for just the right sound. Personally I also like Roland synths as vs their competitors I find live they cut through the mix very well for your rompler/sampler based workstation. However as far as their competitors I personally feel with the exception of the piano sounds the Motif line is top notch in their instrument patches. If I was to chose a keyboard for scoring work only the motif would be at the top of my list.

No dissing Korg, Just I don't find them tops in those two areas but still great workstations. Your ear may tell you different.

Now if you are not in the budget for one of those then in the used market look to Emu and Ensoniq or Kurzweill. The K series has great patches as did the later Ensoniq workstations. They will get you close.

Not to dis on soft synths, I love them and want to use them more but there is a level of responsiveness needed in duplicating some of these instruments that often dedicated hardware can do better unless your machine is spec'd to the gills.

My experience of course, yours may vary.

Also the age old cheat, if the instrument sounds to synthesized, bathe it in some effects. Ok kind of kidding there but it can bring a cold sound back into the mix nicely.

Ken

Hi Ken, sorry for taking too long to respond. Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate that. Have heard good stuff about the Kurwzweil and Ensoniq synths indeed. And the "bathe it some effects" tip is sooo true.

Anyway I take your word for there being a limit on having a realistic setup that relies on soft synths only.

Best regards,
Piovezan

[devilock76]

Hi Ken, sorry for taking too long to respond. Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate that. Have heard good stuff about the Kurwzweil and Ensoniq synths indeed. And the "bathe it some effects" tip is sooo true.

Anyway I take your word for there being a limit on having a realistic setup that relies on soft synths only.

Best regards,
Piovezan

No worries. Let me clarify part of my statement. You can do most anything you ever want with soft synths. Just as you can with hardware, what works best and is more cost effective though can vary. For at home production soft synths offer a lot of bang for the buck. For live use dedicated workstations/synths can win there usually. The reasons is the speed required for natural performance response is high. Dedicated keyboards can handle this out the gate. Getting a computer to keep up with it could be more hassle than it is worth.

In the end, it is up to what you are comfortable with. Personally I like to have both, best of both worlds and all.

Ken

[david778866]

Have you ever wanted to be like Johnny Nasser, Beethoven, and others ?
Listening to music and enjoying the melodic overtones makes you wonder if you also could compose a song, or even just a melody! Some very well known composers do not know how to read sheet music, but are very successful. Most of the time however, a background in reading music and playing an instrument is important.