Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

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Euximion
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Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by Euximion »

Hello,

This is partly a how-to, partly a question whether other people have found better solutions. I am quite new to Linux audio, so please pardon me if I write nonsense.

The issue

The issue is how to manage combined mixdown of midi and audio tracks in Qtractor, and how to manage panning and volume for the midi tracks, too. At least in the Qtractor I use, v0.6.3.17, there is no option to mixdown your whole midi+audio piece to, say, an ogg or mp3. This is one of the very few unhappy surprises I've had with this wonderful program (the other being the unintuitive bus creation). Others have had similar experiences. The issue is complicated by the fact that the pan and volume sliders for the midi tracks in the mixer do not work on the midi track's *audio* output (as you might incorrectly assume), but on the pan and velocity signals sent to whatever plugin you have on the midi track. If that plugin does not handle these signals as expected, or at all, there is a problem. LinuxSampler does, other plugins do not.

One solution, but not a great one, is to record individual midi tracks to individual audio tracks (e.g. 'epiano' midi track to 'epiano' audio track, 'chimes' midi track to 'chimes' audio track, etc.). Then you can use the volume and pan on those audio tracks, and mixdown all the audio tracks. The trouble here is that this can quickly result in a cumbersome amount of tracks, and a lot of time spent recording midi to audio (as described in the post linked to above).

Now, it seems to me that there is a bit of amiguity. The pan and 'volume' (velocity) sliders in the mixer slots for midi tracks apply to the midi specification. That would suggest that a midi track is a *pure* midi thing. However, when given a plugin (or two or three), midi tracks can actually produce audio. Moreover, fade-in and fade-out can be applied to a midi track, and these work on the track's /audio/ output. On the whole I feel it would be less confusing if the pan and volume sliders worked on the /audio/ output of the track, too. (Then there would have to be another way to adjust the actual /midi/ pan and velocity.) But for now, it is not so.

A hack

My simple solution for all of this, has been to look for a plugin which incorporates a pan and volume dial, and preferably not much else so as to save the CPU. This plugin can go at the bottom of your plugin list for any midi track, so no matter what else generates (synth, sfz player plugins) or modifies (effect plugins) your sound, at the end it goes through this 'pan&vol' plugin. If you give them 'dedicated Audio' (right-click in the plugin area and choose Audio > Dedicated) each of these midi tracks will have an out port in the connections window, and if you put an insert on your audio tracks, these will have out ports too. You can then connect all of these out ports to the in port of a bus you've created (let's call it MixBus; I set it to duplex so I can route its output to the system playback). If you then create a mixdown audio track with MixBus as its input and output, and arm it for recording, then you can record the audio output of all of your tracks (both midi and audio tracks) all at once to this single mixdown track. And there you have your finished mix in ogg format!

So, if you have a big composition, you will still have to connect a lot of out ports with that single MixBus in port - but it is a lot less cumbersome than creating separate audio tracks etc, plus you get the volume and panning control, which you can automate too because Qtractor allows you to automate plugin variables.

My best candidate for a 'pan&vol' plugin for now has been the MDA Image plugin. I'm afraid I don't know exactly what this plugin is intended to do - something mono-and-stereo related (anyone?). But its sliders, particularly M Level and M Pan, allow control over pan and volume. Do people have other suggestions?

... and a half: 'spatialization'?

Back in my Windows days, I used a nice if somewhat obscure Japanese DAW, Music Studio by Frieve. Whether out-of-the-box or not I don't remember, but it had an interface where you could visually place tracks (represented as circled track numbers) in a 2D 'room'. I believe the x-axis position would control pan, and the y-axis volume. If you automated pan and vol on your tracks, the 'circle musicians' would move through the 2D space as the composition played. This was very handy to keep an overview of the work, and to experiment. So I wondered if something like this is possible via Qtractor. The closest I've found for now is the MultiToTwo plugin from AcousModules. It is a VST plugin, but (to my admiring surprise!) it works nicely through the dssi-vst plugin and Wine. It can take up to 24 input signals, and outputs in regular 2-channel stereo. You can 'place' the tracks/signals on the x-axis to pan; however the y-axis does not control volume as such, but rather something to do with room acoustics, adding reverb or some such. Another plugin by the same developer, SpatMass88, does allow you to play with volume as well as panning, by placing tracks closer or farther away from virtual speakers/mics. But it is intended for 8-channel surround sound, so if you are working on a regular stereo piece then you really have too many outputs, 'only' 8 inputs which may not be enough, and generally an interface not really as appropriate as the MultiToTwo one. However the biggest deal-breaker for these amazing plugins, in this setup, is that the x,y-positions of the tracks are not saved by Qtractor - indeed they do not show in the plugins 'Properties' dialog, so probably Qtractor has no way to save them. And you cannot automate them either. Since you cannot save your 'room setup' from session to session, it becomes just about useless for compositions of even moderate size :( They are also more demanding on the CPU than a couple of MDA Image plugins (which are very light). So for now I'm sticking to the latter. But maybe someone has further ideas about this.

best regards
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by rncbc »

Euximion wrote:...Moreover, fade-in and fade-out can be applied to a midi track, and these work on the track's /audio/ output.
nope. MIDI clip fade-in/out applies to note-on velocities, they do NOT apply to the audio output of any of the instrument plugins whatever inserted in a MIDI track's plugin chain.

you can try using a simple audio_fx plugin (eg. LADSPA) to have direct control of that audio signal like gain/volume and/or panning/stereo balance. i think this is what you call as it as a "hack" above.

well done, nevertheless.

you can also try redirect it to a dedicated audio output bus, other that "Master Out" (the default); you can also fork the audio signal with help of the Aux Send insert pseudo plugin. there you have the corresponding (gain/pan sliders) controls for audio mixdown.

all that said, have you consider to contribute to qtractor wiki anytime?

thanks for sharing.
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by Euximion »

rncbc wrote:nope. MIDI clip fade-in/out applies to note-on velocities, they do NOT apply to the audio output of any of the instrument plugins whatever inserted in a MIDI track's plugin chain.
Ah, oops. I wasn't too sure about that, but after some quick experiments it seemed to me it acted on the audio - must have misinterpreted.
rncbc wrote:you can try using a simple audio_fx plugin (eg. LADSPA) to have direct control of that audio signal like gain/volume and/or panning/stereo balance. i think this is what you call as it as a "hack" above.
Well, there are lots of them. Is there any you would recommend, one that has gain and pan control, but not too much else so that it's lightweight?
rncbc wrote:you can also try redirect it to a dedicated audio output bus, other that "Master Out" (the default);
Yep. Just to make sure: I think that's what I did, or am I misunderstanding you?
rncbc wrote:you can also fork the audio signal with help of the Aux Send insert pseudo plugin. there you have the corresponding (gain/pan sliders) controls for audio mixdown.
Hm... this seems potentially simpler than the way I described, because it wouldn't require connecting out ports for all the tracks to the mixdown bus in port. No need to make these connections in the Connections window; so no need to set Audio > Dedicated for each midi track, nor to create an insert for each audio track. All you need to do is create an Aux Send insert on all of your tracks...

However after a quick experiment I'm running into an issue with the mixing down. I did as above, with all of the tracks (midi and audio) aux-sending to a duplex MixBUS. I put some more plugins on the out side of the MixBUS, like reverb or a compressor (the kind of plugins you would use on the complete mix). Now I want to record the result. But putting a record-armed audio track onto the MixBUS does nothing, supposedly because the (reverbed, compressed) sound is really only coming out of the 'out' side of MixBUS. No problem, I'll just create one more bus, call it MixDownBUS, to place my record-armed mixdown audio track on, connect MixBUS out with MixDownBUS in, and then everything should work. Something like this:

Code: Select all

                                                             | MixBUS             |   | MixDownBUS         |
midi track 1 --[synth/effects]-[pan/vol plugin]-[aux send]-->|                    |   |                    |
midi track 2 --[synth/effects]-[pan/vol plugin]-[aux send]-->|         OUT[effects]-->IN                   |
audio track 1 -[effects]-------[pan/vol plugin]-[aux send]-->|                    |   |                    |
audio track 2 -[effects]-------[pan/vol plugin]-[aux send]-->|                    |   |                    |
                                                                                                  |
                                                                                                  |
                                                                                                 [R] mixdown audio track
But no sound seems to be going from MixBUS OUT to MixDownBus IN, so nothing is recorded on the mixdown track either (see screenshot). Probably misunderstanding something about buses again... What am I doing wrong?
aux_send_mixdown_qtractor.png
aux_send_mixdown_qtractor.png (206.86 KiB) Viewed 4686 times
(Actually, I'm not sure if the MixDownBus could be just Input, not duplex, which would simplify the picture still more... But then what do you set as the output bus for the Mixdown track?)
rncbc wrote:all that said, have you consider to contribute to qtractor wiki anytime?
I could, but I first wanted to hear from other people if they have better, simpler solutions... Like maybe your Aux Send suggestion, if we can work out the issue above.

thanks!
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by paulmerchant »

Some comments on my own experiences while using Qtractor.

You will quickly bump into limitations when you start to route audio busses (sends, effect tracks, mix downs, etc.) directly back into other Qtractor audio busses. It's something that looks possible and powerful, but you'll either end up with no audio pumping through or, worse, feedback loops. You'll also run into limitations in the way that midi tracks get routed through the master bus. Qtractor seems to be designed to work as a sequencing tool/Swiss army knife meant to be one module in a modular music making approach that requires other Jack applications in order to do everything you might want to do in a powerful DAW.

That said, you really can do just about everything with Qtractor. It really is an audio Swiss-army-knife. And I personally think it can already function as a powerful DAW with just things like the hacks you mentioned (adding a plugin to pan midi tracks) and a little external help for some routing flexibility. For example, if you host your midi instruments in Carla (or use CalfJackHost instruments), you can then route those instruments directly through separate audio busses in Qtractor. Also, if you run Carla (or CalfJackHost or non-mixer) along with Qtractor, you can route all your creative busses that you make in Qtractor through this other Jack modular tool to have a more flexible "master bus" or "mix down bus" or a "sidechain bus" and then route these "busses" from the other Jack app in a modular way back into Qtractor.

If you follow the modular approaches above, you'll have the added complexity of running at least one other tool and you'll need to manage your session and Jack routing. The other approach is one already mentioned: record your midi tracks onto audio tracks. That can add a lot of extra steps and added complexity and a lot of tracks and mixer strips.

(I once tested a workflow where I had two instances of Qtractor running. My hope was to have one instance handle all the midi that was to be recorded by the other Qtractor instance dedicated to audio tracks. There were some small issues with running multiple instances at the time, however, as the two instances of Qtractor couldn't remember which was Jack master and which was slave, or something like that, and some plugins didn't seem to work with two instances running, but Qtractor has improved since then and maybe multiple instances of Qtractor can work now. The mixer strips have also been improving this last year so maybe running multiple instances of Qtractor to limit mixer strips won't be an enticing idea in the future.)

Anyway, I hope those thoughts help someone a bit.
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by bluebell »

There is another speciality in Qtractor: AUX sends are pre-fader in audio tracks. That's not what I want when sending to an audio bus with a reverb or echo.

So I have in every track, both MIDI and audio, two plugins: one for the volume and one for the panning. I use two plugins instead of one because I can assign only one parm as "direct access". But since not every parm maps fine to a center position when centered (e.g. stereo phase in CALF stereo tool) I might use one single tool in the future like CALF stereo tools or balance.lv2.

See http://www.marzen.de/tmp/qtractor-mixer.png

I once tried to do some voodoo in a MIDI track and feed the fader's control output to the stereo amp's plugin volume parm, but it ended up in a MIDI loop.

Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – http://suedwestlicht.saar.de/

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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by rncbc »

apologies for such a retarded reply ;)

as bluebell probably knows pretty well by now, as splintered in some other threads over this forum and somewhere else, there's a bunch of limitations or restrictions that apply to qtractor audio buses that everyone should be aware:

a) connecting a duplex audio bus outputs to its own inputs is NOT recommended at all--actual signal flow is undefined; moreover, if monitor is in effect, a dangerous positive feedback situation arises which could seriusly affect your speakers and ultimately your ears. (all this also applies to MIDI buses but without so severe consequences).

b) aux-sends inserted in audio output buses ONLY work if the target audio bus is listed AFTER the source one; in other words, aux-sends on audio output buses may NOT work as intended and thus are not advisable.

c) connecting any existing qtractor dedicated audio output ports into ANY of qtractor owned audio input buses or ports, may NOT always work as expected due to the "zero-copy" optimization of JACK audio port buffers: more often than not you just get silence on input, instead of the actual audio signal; solution goes to have more than one divert connections on input port or an aditional all-pass jack client intercalated (with side effect of adding one extra period of input latency).

i suspect Euximion has hit pitfall b).

hth.
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by bluebell »

rncbc wrote: b) aux-sends inserted in audio output buses ONLY work if the target audio bus is listed AFTER the source one; in other words, aux-sends on audio output buses may NOT work as intended and thus are not advisable.
My solution seems to work, though: I use inserts (without using their returns) to create fake aux-sends to my reverb buses.
On http://www.marzen.de/tmp/qtractor-mixer.png the two "Echo 1 Aus" and "Echo 2 Aus" on the right side of the screenshot have inserts that work like aux-sends to "Rev1 Ein" and "Rev2 Ein" on the left side of the screenshot.

I am still in love with Qtractor :)

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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by paulmerchant »

My solution seems to work, though: I use inserts (without using their returns) to create fake aux-sends to my reverb buses.
On http://www.marzen.de/tmp/qtractor-mixer.png the two "Echo 1 Aus" and "Echo 2 Aus" on the right side of the screenshot have inserts that work like aux-sends to "Rev1 Ein" and "Rev2 Ein" on the left side of the screenshot.
That's a beautiful screenshot, bluebell! It inspired me to fire up Qtractor to run further tests with aux sends and inserts.

I've been resolving some issues with the latest linuxsampler in Qtractor and the above mentioned routing issues by running Qtractor and Carla together, but my projects haven't been as "pretty" as the one in your screenshot. :)
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by Euximion »

Hello people,

Reviving this thread because after a hiatus I made some progress, but I also have more questions. Thanks everyone for your input. And bluebell, thanks for the screenshot, it helped with finding out about 'direct access' and more.

Below my own screenshot of what seems a compact and working ( :D ) setup. It's maybe the same as what bluebell uses, but I'm not sure, and this is a bit simpler, with fewer tracks:
qtractor_mixdown_setup.png
qtractor_mixdown_setup.png (196.77 KiB) Viewed 4619 times
In words:

All tracks except for the Mixdown one, both audio and MIDI, have as their final plugins MDA Image and the Aux Send pseudo-plugin.

The MDA Image plugin is used for panning, and has 'M Pan' set for Direct Access. Its other parameter values are set to: Mode = 1, S Width = 0, S Pan = 0, M Level = 1, Output = 0.5. It sounds to me like these values mean that you can quite 'cleanly' use this plugin as a panner using only M Pan - this in answer to bluebell's concern that with some plugins "not every parm maps fine to a center position when centered". But I can't say for sure, because I don't really know what the MDA Image plugin does exactly (or its intended use).

The Aux Send pseudo-plugins have 'Send Gain' set for Direct Access. So in this setup, panning and volume for both audio and MIDI tracks to the mix is controlled by these two plugins, MDA Image and Aux Send. Mixer faders are not used.

The Aux Send plugins have a duplex 'Mixer' bus as their Aux Send Bus. On this bus's output (Mixer Out) I put whatever plugin I like to use on the whole mix (here a flanger, just for testing), and then an Insert. For the recording of the complete piece I created a third duplex bus, called MixRec. Then I connected Mixer_Out_Insert/out to MixRec/in in the Connections dialog, and chose MixRec as the input (and output) bus for the Mixdown track. And then it is just a matter of hitting record. But in order to still hear the output on my speakers I had to also connect MixRec/out to playback in the Connections dialog (that is why MixRec is a duplex bus... it needs to output too).


And so that works! With fairly minimal connections. But I don't fully understand why. Used a lot of trial-and-error. I probably still don't fully understand buses, sends, inserts etc. Some questions:

1) It seems that using the Aux Send pseudo-plugin from the tracks on the Master bus to the Mixer bus makes it unnecessary to actually connect Master/out to Mixer/in in the Connections dialog. Confusing to me. How does this work?

2) Why do I need to put an 'Insert' on the Mixer (out) bus to route the sound to the MixRec bus? Why does it not work if I just connect Mixer/out to MixRec/in?

3) I do hear sound on my speakers if I connect MixRec/out to playback, with monitoring active on the MixRec bus -- as in the screenshot. But how come that if instead I connect Mixer/out to playback, with monitoring active on the Mixer bus, I hear no sound on my speakers? (That would be a slight simplification, because then the MixRec bus could be input only, not duplex.)

4) In this setup, pan and vol for the tracks in the mix is controlled entirely via plugins, and the normal mixer faders are useless... I guess it's okay, but still seems bizarre. Thoughts?

5) Can this setup be simplified even more?

cheers!
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a hal

Post by rncbc »

Euximion wrote: 3) I do hear sound on my speakers if I connect MixRec/out to playback, with monitoring active on the MixRec bus -- as in the screenshot. But how come that if instead I connect Mixer/out to playback, with monitoring active on the Mixer bus, I hear no sound on my speakers? (That would be a slight simplification, because then the MixRec bus could be input only, not duplex.)
plese refer to my retarded reply as posted above on Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:39 am.

byee
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by scott.thomason »

Has this situation improved at all over the last 7 years? Or are we required to do all kinds of craziness like described above to get volume/panning on a MIDI track? I've been avoiding the situation while tracking my first project, but now its time for me to get mixing and I'm up against the same issues @Euximion describes.

This seems like a case where the desire to adhere to some arbitrary technical implementation methods is needlessly outweighing usability. I mean really, the fader on the track should control its volume.
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by rncbc »

sorry to tell, it's all still as it ever was

and will keep that way: MIDI track's sliders are dedicated controllers for MIDI CC#7 (Volume) and CC#10 (Panning) -- it's still all up for the takers, the target MIDI instruments (plugins or otherwise), to take it or leave it! most don't give a dang, that's why you seem to argue that's a qtractor issue, but it isn't, never was, so sorry again

how many times do I have to tell you this all over again?
I guess a lot more :)
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by scott.thomason »

I have a knack for writing things that come across snottier than I really intended them to be, and my latest post is another example of it. Sorry to offend.

I get it...you designed it to control the midi parameters, you wrote the software, and it is exactly how you want it to be. Nothing wrong with that. In my humble opinion the track slider should control the volume of the audio output, but if I want it that way I guess I should write my own sequencer.

All-in-all, I really like Qtractor, so I don't see using something else in the short term. It hits a sweet spot on the spectrum of features vs. usability overall. I'll just learn how to deal with this thing. I may grumble a little more, but I'll try to keep it off the forums ;)
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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by yellius »

Hi all,

I have also been struggling to understand exactly how this works, just connecting inputs and outputs was clearly too simple :)

One "hack" that worked for me that doesn't use inserts is as follows:
1) create your busses (say drums, lead, voice, aux), all duplex
2) create your helpers (e.g. mixdown, master_out, rec), all duplex
3) open your mixer
4) I found that you can't add an "aux send" to your bus "drums Out"... but... you CAN create an "aux send" in your "drums In" (right click under "drums In" -> "Inserts" -> "Audio" -> "add aux send")
5) activate the aux send and select your helper e.g. "mixdown"
5) this doesn't help you yet, but with your mouse you can now drag this aux send to your "drums Out" ..!
6) do the same for "mixdown in" (create an aux-send linked to "master_out"), and move to "mixdown out"
7) in connections hookup "master_out" to your hardware out device

Edit 1: I think I had to enable "monitor" for most of these busses for this to work, but haven't tried in detail (I'm not quite sure what impact it has to enable "monitor" from the documentation, but the so-called complex flow-scheme suggests it connects in and out).

Edit 2: You don't need to do anything strange to your tracks, you can just assign to the bus you like e.g. Track 1 -> Audio -> "drums"

It looks quite neat like this, and personally I find it more intuitive than "half using" the inserts. It also doesn't create all these extra connections in the connections window, it remains internal to qtractor when using aux send (according to the documentation).

Does it work for others?

@rncbc, anything wrong with this approach? If not, could you perhaps enable/allow direct creation of "aux send" in the "out" section of busses?

Best regards,
yellius

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Re: Midi+Audio mixdown & pan/vol in Qtractor: a hack & a half

Post by rncbc »

yellius wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:08 pm

@rncbc, anything wrong with this approach? If not, could you perhaps enable/allow direct creation of "aux send" in the "out" section of busses?

nothing is really wrong if it works right for you ;)

welcome to qtractor's power-user guild :twisted:
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